Author Topic: ESA with PSD tasks?  (Read 572 times)

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Offline furbaby

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ESA with PSD tasks?
« on: February 01, 2010, 03:43:36 PM »
Can you have an ESA do PSD-like tasks? Can you train an ESA to do SD tasks? I'm less concerned about the legalities (I'd like to be able to bring the ESA into stores, but don't think I qualify for a PSD).

Offline Kirsten

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
Of course you can train tasks.  But ESAs are not legally the same as service animals.  A person with an ESA has no legal right to take one in a store, so you'd have to ask permission of the store before visiting.

Actually, though, the definition of "disability" is the same for both ESAs and SDs.  If a person is legally disabled, they can qualify for either one.  There is no "more" or "less" disabled.  A person either meets the legal definition or doesn't.  It isn't a matter of degrees.

Whether the animal is task trained determines whether it is legally considered an ESA or a SD.  Some service dogs, and in particular some hearing dogs, are home only service dogs.  They are task trained, but not trained for public access, and not used in public.  ESAs need no training beyond basic pet manners so that they are well behaved, but you can teach them anything beyond that that you want.  But a person with an ESA does not generally have public access rights with that ESA except with the permission of the owner of the business they wish to visit.
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 12:41:24 AM »
Gavroche actually has some tasks now, however to me he's still an ESA because I refuse to work him in public (health reasons). I do use his "find the car" command sometimes when we go to pet stores, especially if the lot is crowded and we've been in the store a while. He can also find home and find the dumpster, which are not as necessary where we live now as they were in the last place, since this is one apartment building and the othe rplace was a huge complex. So, yes, you can add tasks. But Kirsten gave you a pretty good explanation of the differences, so I'll leave it at that.

Gavroche de la Rue RN CGC - "Gavroche" (boxer), ESA
Moxie's Adamantium Man HIC CGC - "Logan" (smooth collie), SDiT
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Offline furbaby

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 06:05:49 PM »
Sorry to keep asking questions, but this seems to be the most reliable resource for information.

Can you direct me to the process for setting up a pet as an ESA?  Is there documentation/forms/etc? I'm having trouble understanding how you differentiate a pet from an ESA (I get the difference, I mean outside of the definition.)

Thanks!

Offline Sunkala Joy van Veen

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 09:48:27 PM »
An ESA is a prescribed pet.  Prescribed by a doctor.
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Online cowlypso

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 10:55:25 PM »
There are two reasons that you would need to document your pet as an ESA.  First, if you live in housing (such as an apartment or a condo) that is "no-pets."  Second, if you will be flying and will either need your ESA during the flight or at your destination.  If neither of these situations apply to you, then you don't need to document the animal as an ESA at all.  The only reason to document it is if you will need the legal protection offered in those two specific cases.

If you fall into one of these two categories, you will need a letter from your doctor stating your disability and need for the ESA.  Check out this link which offers further information about ESAs in housing: http://servicedogcentral.org/content/faq/59

Offline Kirsten

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 03:22:36 AM »
For documentation for an Emotional Support Animal, so that you may keep one in "no pets" housing or travel by airplane with one in the cabin with you (the only two instances where special exceptions are granted for ESAs over pets), check here:  http://www.servicedogcentral.org/content/node/256

I've included the step-by-step instructions on the process and sample letters for both the person with a disability and the person's doctor.

Please note that a person with an ESA has no right to take their ESA any place that pets are not permitted, without permission from the business's manager.  The only two exceptions are "no pets" housing or air travel.

For further information on the differences between an ESA and a psychiatric service dog, check here:  http://www.servicedogcentral.org/content/node/76
Kirsten
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Offline cazza03

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 03:52:58 PM »
But, an SD is a pet with task and public access training, I think it's best to start a SD in training as soon as you can so it can stay working as long as possible, but starting with an adult dog's not unheard of.
Even an ESA with tasks isn't an SD, SDs frequently work in all kinds of enviroments, without public access training (which I'm discovering is much harder then task training)the dog will stay an ESA.

Offline responsiblek9

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 04:14:37 PM »
 :trx:There are in-home use only service dogs who are not public access trained but they ARE  service dogs under the ADA  . Hearing dogs are an example kind of task trained service dogs who were often not trained for public access yet are still a service dog. They would not be seen as an untrained ESA pet would be.

You also might find some people will take offence at their service dog being called JUST a "pet with tasks and public access training".
Pets are a luxery . The working service dog is a neccesity.
Treating a working service dog as just a pet can undermine their training also to create some bad habits that are ok in a pet but can't be tolerated in a service dog . .
Also if in a news article someone calls a disabled person's service dog a pet it undermines the credibility of the disabled person's use of their  working SD in the eyes of the public who are told pets are NOT service animals.

Just some observations ...
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But, an SD is a pet with task and public access training, I think it's best to start a SD in training as soon as you can so it can stay working as long as possible, but starting with an adult dog's not unheard of.
Even an ESA with tasks isn't an SD, SDs frequently work in all kinds of enviroments, without public access training (which I'm discovering is much harder then task training)the dog will stay an ESA.
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 06:05:59 PM »
But, an SD is a pet with task and public access training...

An SD is NOT a pet any more than a wheel chair is a pet!!!!!!!
Kirsten
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 06:35:48 PM »
Some of you are looking too narrowly at what an ESA is.

It is not by definition non-task trained.  It simply isn't required to be task trained in order for an animal to be an ESA.

Brain surgeons aren't required to know how to play golf, but they can if they want to.  An ESA isn't required to perform tasks, but it can if you teach it to do so.

Here's an example:

I am disabled.  I have an ESA cat.  The cat is trained to retrieve small items from under furniture, especially hair rubber bands.  My disability does not prevent me from getting the hair rubber bands myself.  It was simply amusing and useful to teach the cat to do it for me.  Retrieving hair rubber bands is a trained task, but because it does not mitigate my disability it would not justify calling my cat a service cat.  Because it was also not possible to proof this cat to the point of reliability, he still wouldn't be a service cat even if I needed that particular task.

There are also home service dogs, who have the task training, but not the public access training.  Many hearing dogs fall into this category.  Legally they are still service animals.  They simply are not used in public.  But task training in and of itself isn't going to turn all ESAs magically into service dogs.

I just don't want to discourage anyone from training a dog to do anything at all (so long as it isn't harmful to the dog) because of semantics.  Training can produce some helpful results, training is in itself fun (for both human and dog), and training is a very important source of mental stimulation and fulfillment for the dog.

So please, let's not tell someone they can't task train their ESA.  Because they can!  Maybe the training will change the dog's status, maybe it won't.  That part doesn't really matter so long as the needs of both the dog and the person are being met.

Heck I started teaching Ruby some hearing dog tasks just for the heck of it and accidentally discovered an actual task related to my disability.  I hear ringtones off and on all day so often don't recognize when my cell is actually ringing unless I've got it in my pocket.  Keeping it in my pocket has been a workable solution.  Unfortunately, I do not sleep with tight fitting clothes with pockets that will press the phone against me such that I actually feel it vibrate.  I might have seriously missed out on something incredibly useful for managing my disability if I had believed I couldn't just train a task for the heck of it rather than to change a dog's status.

I train to make the dog pleasant company or helpful, to fulfill his/her needs for mental stimulation, and because it is fun.  Not to change my dog's status.  It's still the same dog, regardless of what label you slap on it.  In a proper world it is still loved as much regardless of what label it wears ("nut" or "service dog" Ruby is still helpful and sweet).

Okay, so now I'm ranting.  I just think sometimes there is a strong tendency to get too hung up in labels instead of the important stuff.  Like task shopping.  "I'm only interested in teaching my dog med reminders so I can call it a service dog, not because I actually need med reminders or because I'm just looking for something interesting to engage my dog."

I should step away.  My dogs are becoming concerned.  Didn't know this topic would excite me this much.
Kirsten
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: ESA with PSD tasks?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2010, 12:41:11 AM »
Quote
I am disabled.  I have an ESA cat.  The cat is trained to retrieve small items from under furniture, especially hair rubber bands.  My disability does not prevent me from getting the hair rubber bands myself.  It was simply amusing and useful to teach the cat to do it for me.  Retrieving hair rubber bands is a trained task, but because it does not mitigate my disability it would not justify calling my cat a service cat.  Because it was also not possible to proof this cat to the point of reliability, he still wouldn't be a service cat even if I needed that particular task.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier saying my dog has tasks but is not a service dog, but you put it so much better lol. To elaborate, my dog can turn the lights off. Well, could...he's been out of practice because we're both lazy, and the light switch is within reach (if I use the target stick to turn it off...). Anyway, I don't need that task. But it was fun to train. He's also working on some alerts, some of which are useful, others that aren't, but he's not really reliable (sometimes he'll bring me the phone as soon as the alarm goes off. Sometimes not until it's been going off for 10 minutes and apparently he just wants it to shut up. Other times he doesn't do anything about it). We're also working on guidework, for to teach me how to teach it rather than to be useful, but I actually have used it on bad days when we go for walks or I take him out to potty. Particularly on stairs. He also can retrieve. I don't need him to bring me dirty socks or scraps of paper, but it's fun. I also don't need him to bring me a hot dog, but it's impressive to most people to see and it's what we're working on next (all it is is food proofing really...he's got the cheese on the paws thing down pat, now we take it to a new level lol)  :raspberry:

For me, training is quite therapeutic. Gavroche would not be nearly as beneficial if I just had him and didn't do anything with him.   I mean after all, this is the dog that quite literally changed my life. The idea of becoming a service dog trainer probably would never have crossed my mind if it wasn't for him.

I was stressed out the other day when I got home. I was greeted by a wiggly butt. I got out the clicker and taught him to weave 3 poles in 3 tries. Made us both very happy. Then we worked on German about turns for our rally class. And then I wasn't so stressed anymore.
Gavroche de la Rue RN CGC - "Gavroche" (boxer), ESA
Moxie's Adamantium Man HIC CGC - "Logan" (smooth collie), SDiT
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