Author Topic: First time flying  (Read 282 times)

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Offline RedSonia29

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2017, 11:02:39 AM »
Also, why is your ESA going to fairs, black Friday shopping, malls and "basically everywhere else you go"? ESAs do not have public access rights and can not be brought into public venues with an expectation of accommodation like service dogs can. ESAs are only granted special privileges in flying and housing, both are only given with proper documentation. Emotional support is specifically excluded as a task by the Americans with Disabilities Act which is the federal law that protects a disabled handler's right to have their trained assistance dog accompany them in non-pet friendly areas.

The ADA does not protect ESAs of any species and thus you are liable to have your dog removed from any public venue you take him to. You can always call ahead and ask if he can come but unless he performs trained tasks that mitigate your disability (as a rule, cuddling, petting, licking or comforting are not generally tasks - generally because licking can be implemented in legitimate task work) then you do not have the right to be accompanied by your dog in public and any store that sells human food is obligated to decline access to you and your dog because it's a health code violation.

I'd like to reiterate what @Summertime as discussed above. Gandalf is an Emotional Support Animal (ESA), not a service dog. Under the ADA, he does not have public access accommodations the same way that a service dog does. Make sure that you understand the legal difference in public access rights between an ESA and a SD. Refer to the ADA and their FAQ for more information about the difference between the two.
ADA Text: https://www.ada.gov/pubs/adastatute08.pdf
ADA FAQ: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 11:21:35 AM »
I've found one large cookie is sufficient to hold the bile at bay with my shepherds who have had sensitive stomachs.

I don't think it's particularly rare or unusual for a shepherd puppy to be precocious.  All of mine have been.  They and border collies and poodles are in the top three in training intelligence and shepherds and collies in particular, being in the herding group, are busy little beasts that have to be kept entertained or they will turn to distruction and demolition.  Teaching them things is self-defense.  I've had to deal with dogs who figured out door knobs (Cole and Tardis), deadbolts and car locks (Ruby), window airconditioners (Luna), and heaven help me when they work together on something or get a reaction from someone.  I taught Luna to bring me a tissue when I sneezed and she demonstrated this skill at a rehearsal for our musical freestyle drill team and got a laugh when she decided one tissue really wasn't enough and that's when I lost her and she started machine gunning tissues at me as fast as she could, with the audience laughing harder and harder, egging her on until she ran out and shredded the tissue box into confetti and threw that at me too.  I never could ask for a tissue again after that without mayhem errupting.  With Cole it came in the obedience ring when he did a recall over a jump and he thought the jump was for sissies so he over jumped it, showing off and the audience gasped.  They should never have done that because he turned around and jumped it again even bigger and then they laughed.  It took a lot of work convincing him to just focus on doing the exercise and not playing to the audience after that.  The intelligence is a double edged sword.  They bore easily and get themselves into trouble.  It's hard to stay ahead of them, to anticipate them and head them off before they figure out something I regret, and they aren't happy repeating things they think are stupid or boring.

I agree that there is no point using a vest on an ESA since it isn't expected and serves no useful purpose.

Regarding the leash, no, I would not use a rope.  Whether you are worried about controling your dog or not, the people around you, some with guns, are.  You need to convince them your dog is under your control and that you are taking it seriously.  I'm not going to give anyone in law enforcement a reason to worry about my dog and shoot him.  Not with a large German shepherd.

If you don't have a six foot leash or cannot acquire one, then go through the metal detector together and if either of you sets it off, get wanded and body searched together.  I can go through with my dog on his seatbelt harness because there's no metal on it.  But such a seatbelt harness will cost a lot more than a six foot leash.  If you go through together, make sure he's not a tail wagger because if his tail touches the sides of the detector arch that will set it off too.
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Offline GandalfTheShepherd

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 11:28:55 AM »
Also, why is your ESA going to fairs, black Friday shopping, malls and "basically everywhere else you go"? ESAs do not have public access rights and can not be brought into public venues with an expectation of accommodation like service dogs can. ESAs are only granted special privileges in flying and housing, both are only given with proper documentation. Emotional support is specifically excluded as a task by the Americans with Disabilities Act which is the federal law that protects a disabled handler's right to have their trained assistance dog accompany them in non-pet friendly areas.

The ADA does not protect ESAs of any species and thus you are liable to have your dog removed from any public venue you take him to. You can always call ahead and ask if he can come but unless he performs trained tasks that mitigate your disability (as a rule, cuddling, petting, licking or comforting are not generally tasks - generally because licking can be implemented in legitimate task work) then you do not have the right to be accompanied by your dog in public and any store that sells human food is obligated to decline access to you and your dog because it's a health code violation.

I'd like to reiterate what @Summertime as discussed above. Gandalf is an Emotional Support Animal (ESA), not a service dog. Under the ADA, he does not have public access accommodations the same way that a service dog does. Make sure that you understand the legal difference in public access rights between an ESA and a SD. Refer to the ADA and their FAQ for more information about the difference between the two.
ADA Text: https://www.ada.gov/pubs/adastatute08.pdf
ADA FAQ: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

Yes like I said all places we go around here we have permission by the owners that he is allowed. We live in a VERY dog friendly town thankfully and we have a very friendly well behaved dog! We do not take him inside restaurants but almost every food place here they have tables outside and a dog patio. I understand now what summertime also said about mirrors, here is the challenge again from his perspective :smile:, it is his favorite treat (beef tripe) you can really tell how much he wants it. He is a good boy, I wouldn't try taking a dog on a plane that couldn't behave himself. We have never been asked to leave a store (that we have permission to enter, I don't take him to places we aren't allowed) and we always get comments on how well behaved he is. I am excited and happy I am allowed to fly with my ESA and we want to be good examples so that future ESA's and SD may fly too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0QYIbA80v4


Edit:
 Lol yes Kirsten they are too darn smart for their own good sometimes!!! Is there a link somewhere for a 6 ft leash without metal? I can't find one anywhere. Does he have to walk through the detector slowly?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 11:33:00 AM by GandalfTheShepherd »

Offline GandalfTheShepherd

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 12:08:57 PM »
In regards to the vest whenever we go in public he wears it and I think it lets him know it is time to be behaved and not goof off. As soon as I take the vest off hes off and playing. I feel like I have kind of shot myself in the foot here. We use it in public too so that people don't mess with him and pet him unless asked, he is still an "aggressive dog breed" and although very friendly I don't like people getting in my dogs faces without asking me first so I can be prepared mentally. I feel like it also reassures people that I didn't just somehow sneak a dog in and that he is supposed to be here with permission. I had one man in home depot once try to run over my old dog with a shopping cart... my dog wasn't wearing a vest and was just walking calmly by my side. I don't want people to mistake him as a SD however, because that isn't right he has not been trained for that however many people think he is because he heels so nicely and is perfectly behaved.

Offline Moonsong

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 12:13:26 PM »
If you want to use a vest to communicate to the dog that it's work time, use a harness instead. What you're basically doing is using gear to help the dog distinguish when it's serious time vs chill time. You don't specifically need a vest to do so. By choosing to use a vest, you make the dog appear to be a service dog to casual bystanders, and this is problematic for service dog users. Using the harness can tell your dog that it's work time without making the dog appear to be a service dog to members of the public.
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Offline GandalfTheShepherd

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 12:27:57 PM »
If you want to use a vest to communicate to the dog that it's work time, use a harness instead. What you're basically doing is using gear to help the dog distinguish when it's serious time vs chill time. You don't specifically need a vest to do so. By choosing to use a vest, you make the dog appear to be a service dog to casual bystanders, and this is problematic for service dog users. Using the harness can tell your dog that it's work time without making the dog appear to be a service dog to members of the public.

I'm having a bit of a difficult time understanding this. Even though he may not be as "important" to the public as a service dog (well he is as important to me!) he is here for me for a reason though too. Why should he be distracted by people petting and hugging all over him? I do need his focus, having people messing with him will stress me out too. If he were just a normal pet he would not be an ESA, I require his help. I feel like a harness just tells the public he is a pet and that they can do whatever they want to him. I worry in a tight place like an airport too people might be more scared of him if they think he has no training (he actually has passed several obedience courses and takes his CGC exam before we leave).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 12:32:01 PM by GandalfTheShepherd »

Offline Summertime.and.Azkaban

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 01:19:45 PM »
Because you should not misrepresent your dog as a service dog and a vest of any kind will confuse the public.

Presumably you would mark him as an emotional support animal and not a service dog, but what you don't see is the public may not understand that the stores you are taking him are pet friendly. They go in thinking a store is not pet friendly, see a dog in an ESA vest, and assume that ESAs have public access rights like service dogs. It's the same reason SDs (in my opinion) should be marked in non-pet friendly venues to communicate that the store is not pet friendly and the dog is there on an exception.

It's your choice, but I see no reason to mark ESA dogs unless their handler lives in a dormitory or somewhere where pets are not allowed or they're flying. Flying doesn't really matter anymore, there are so many dogs on planes there's no point trying to convince the public that ESAs are exceptions because everyone thinks fluffy is an ESA or buys a scam letter anyway. The point of the vest is to explain to the public and the business why the dog is there, as a courtesy.

You don't need to vest a dog to teach a dog to focus. In my experience "naked" dogs get questioned more often and encounter more issues with gatekeepers but otherwise the actual public attention is about the same. No matter what, people are going to want to pet your dog. Your best bet is a firm "No, don't pet him. I don't let strangers pet my dog" or "Please don't pet, he's training right now". You will deal with people trying to distract him no matter what you do.

If you teach a dog to only recognize he's working when he's using his vest what are you going to do when your vest is unavailable or ruined? Do you vest him every time you have a dinner party or visitors that make you uncomfortable? That's not very convenient.

A dog should understand that he's working by the way you address him. Your tone and attitude shift when you're expecting seriousness from him and most dogs are capable of recognizing that. Relying on a vest to indicate to a dog he's working is not necessary. If you really feel you need a marker to indicate he's working use a bandanna. They aren't as hard to replace or improvise as a vest. 


 
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 01:37:18 PM »
Yes he has to walk through the detector slowly.

You need the six foot leash if you don't care that he sets the detector off and gets wanded and patted down.  I thought that's what you were expecting to happen.  In such a case it doesn't matter whether there is a metal snap on his end.

When I care about my dog getting a pat down I remove his leash and collar and vest and he heels through on his seatbelt harness at my side.  I use a Ruff Rider Roadie.  The older version had no metal.  The newer version has a metal ring that can be removed with a hack saw.  Since it can secure him in the event of a motor vehicle accident it can plenty secure him as a walking harness.  Fasteners break during impacts, so this one is designed with no critical fasteners, therefore no metal.  There are two plastic adjustment fittings, but they are non-critical and will not receive enough force on impact to fail.

I usually don't care enough to want to mess with undressing him and re-dressing him, but occasionally it will get us through faster if I'm willing to finish re-dressing him at the gate.  My dog doesn't care about being frisked.  I do care.  So generally I put him on a stay on the end of his six foot leash, I go through alone and look at the TSA agent to get the nod to call him through.  He walks through.  I look again for the nod or for them to move toward him to examine him.  Then I put one hand on his leash close to his collar and the other hand on his muzzle and point his face away from the examiner.  They feel under his vest or pack, under the harness, inside his pockets and when they are satisfied, they let us go on.  They're welcome to touch his privates if they want (he doesn't care as he's trained for conformation where they have to palpate the testicles to make sure they aren't implants) but they never do.  I don't want my privates touched by some stranger but they will touch them, if I set off the metal detector.  So I don't.
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Offline Moonsong

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Re: First time flying
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 02:02:00 PM »
You don't need to vest a dog to teach a dog to focus. In my experience "naked" dogs get questioned more often and encounter more issues with gatekeepers but otherwise the actual public attention is about the same. No matter what, people are going to want to pet your dog. Your best bet is a firm "No, don't pet him. I don't let strangers pet my dog" or "Please don't pet, he's training right now". You will deal with people trying to distract him no matter what you do.

If you teach a dog to only recognize he's working when he's using his vest what are you going to do when your vest is unavailable or ruined? Do you vest him every time you have a dinner party or visitors that make you uncomfortable? That's not very convenient.

A dog should understand that he's working by the way you address him. Your tone and attitude shift when you're expecting seriousness from him and most dogs are capable of recognizing that. Relying on a vest to indicate to a dog he's working is not necessary. If you really feel you need a marker to indicate he's working use a bandanna. They aren't as hard to replace or improvise as a vest.

I agree with this. I was actually careful with Max to make sure that he understood when it was 'serious time' regardless of gear. I want my dog to be functional and well-behaved even if I lost or damaged his vest. Max knows when it's time to work based off of my tone and attitude. I only vest him as a courtesy to the public, nothing else.


You can't expect anyone to read patches. And even if they did, and the patch said "ESA", they'll likely just assume that ESAs are allowed public access and will start bringing their 'certified' pets into grocery stores.

Holli's right. It's your choice. But as a service dog handler I'm asking you politely to please refrain from doing so as a courtesy to other SD handlers.



Here's a little tip that I'd noticed. When I look 'busy' with my dog, or it's clear that he's working, fewer people mess with us (harness or vest or naked). So even if we're working naked somewhere (well...he is, not me :laugh:), when they see him focused on me, receiving clear commands, walking in a working heel, etc. Some people pick up on that. Even more people will get the hint when they go "Hi pretty puppy!" and begin to approach and I say "Max, leave it" and move on without so much as looking at the person. Or when they say "What a cute dog!" (which is usually the precursor to asking to pet or attempting to drive-by pet) and I say "thanks" or even just pretend I didn't hear them and move on, often without looking at them.

And if a person doesn't get the message from your behavior and clipped, unwilling responses, and your dog's clear focus on you, then they almost certainly wouldn't have cared about a vest, anyways.

Most of the time, I didn't have to ask someone not to pet. I think out of hundreds of people who were clearly about to try to pet or ask, I've only had to say something to, like, five people. Telling Max to leave it and looking busy has worked well for me.
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