Author Topic: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public  (Read 2208 times)

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Offline swimmergirl247

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evil facebook. this lady has a 17 week old puppy that she swears is a perfect angel and she has spent over 30 years training SD's but she works her puppy prospect in PA settings with a belly band. she's using the exsue that her doe can't hold his badder at his age. but then i agrue that he shouldn't be out until he can and if he IS out he shouldn't be out so long the issue is his young bladder. so my question is would you ever consider it ethical to work a pup in Pa setting ina belly band or any other type of "protection". by the sounds of it she's going  ot burrn the poor thing out but i can't do anything about it.:sad:
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Offline EmmaH

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 02:57:49 PM »
Personally, no. I had this exact problem with a girl I met at the mall. She had a 3 month old Klee Kai that she was trying to make a SD, and she wanted to train with Luca and I. She then told me we'd have to keep an eye out because her pup wasn't potty trained yet because of its small bladder. I told her to talk to me when the pup was completely potty trained and not likely to have an accident. She never texted  :tongue2:

I think if a dog has even the slightest chance of going potty in a public place and needing a belly band or diaper just in case, it isn't ready for PA work. Just my opinion on it. I feel like if MOP see a 'service dog' with a belly band it'll make them think the dog is undertrained.

Offline SalukiLover

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 03:47:36 PM »
I just had to look up what a belly band is -- we housebroke our dog in less than two weeks with no products or gimmicks other than enzymatic cleaner.  At 17 weeks, that pup SHOULD be rock solid, provided he is given opportunities to relieve himself often.
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 04:03:47 PM »
No dog, SD or SDIT should be doing public access in someone else's business until reliably toilet trained. If they're claiming small bladder they don't understand physical development in the dog. The problem isn't size of bladder bit sphincter control. They don't start to get sphincter control until about three months of age. Having a more frequent need to toilet wouldn't be a problem with a toilet trained dog and an attentive handler because pup can say he needs to go and be taken out or handler can keep outings short enough and stimulating enough. It IS a problem when pup doesn't yet have full control of his own body functions. Toileting in baby puppies is controlled by their mothers who trigger them to void when she's ready by licking their genitals. In this way she can keep the den very clean and healthy and make it harder for predators to locate the den. During the transition from mom's control to pup's control pup can go for many hours in the night without toileting even though his bladder is filling as he sleeps. It's not a function of bladder size but of control.

An eight week old pup can "hold it" for one to two hours with good management. Up to one hour for each month of life. When does a wee pup need an outing longer than 15 minutes??? That is a function of both bladder size and sphincter control. What do they do at home? Keep them in diapers all the time? Then how is pup going to learn where waste goes and how to get it to its proper place and release it?

This sounds like people with pups that mark or submissive urinate, who do not know where waste goes, or that are dragged out for overly long outings.
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Offline SalukiLover

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 04:13:21 PM »
No dog, SD or SDIT should be doing public access in someone else's business until reliably toilet trained. If they're claiming small bladder they don't understand physical development in the dog. The problem isn't size of bladder bit sphincter control. They don't start to get sphincter control until about three months of age. Having a more frequent need to toilet wouldn't be a problem with a toilet trained dog and an attentive handler because pup can say he needs to go and be taken out or handler can keep outings short enough and stimulating enough. It IS a problem when pup doesn't yet have full control of his own body functions. Toileting in baby puppies is controlled by their mothers who trigger them to void when she's ready by licking their genitals. In this way she can keep the den very clean and healthy and make it harder for predators to locate the den. During the transition from mom's control to pup's control pup can go for many hours in the night without toileting even though his bladder is filling as he sleeps. It's not a function of bladder size but of control.

An eight week old pup can "hold it" for one to two hours with good management. Up to one hour for each month of life. When does a wee pup need an outing longer than 15 minutes??? That is a function of both bladder size and sphincter control. What do they do at home? Keep them in diapers all the time? Then how is pup going to learn where waste goes and how to get it to its proper place and release it?

This sounds like people with pups that mark or submissive urinate, who do not know where waste goes, or that are dragged out for overly long outings.

Yeah, a lot of the gimmicks don't teach the dog anything, and then the person is wondering why their dog still isn't housebroken.  I'm not a big fan of the wee wee pads for the same reason.

Now, ours had a bit more time than the "one hour per month of life," but Salukis are desert dwellers who drink less and pee less than most other dogs.  They also don't tire in the heat as much, but, on the flip side, they have a lower ability to handle the cold.
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Offline ChickenLips

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 05:04:00 PM »
This sounds like people with pups that mark or submissive urinate, who do not know where waste goes, or that are dragged out for overly long outings.

Sounds like this to me, as well.

Which also points to a training issue... my dog marks like crazy, too.  But not when he's in a heel (and not in buildings).   Submission urination is something I think is easily rectified with time and sensitivity, but I'd be thinking twice about taking a dog like that into something as stressful as SD training right now.  Submissive urinating has the potential to be a lasting issue if it isn't handled correctly.

I've heard the 'small bladder' excuse used FAR too many times to buy it. 

Call me as cynical as you like.. any jerk can claim to be a dog trainer, but that doesn't mean much.  If she is incapable of reading the dog, and understanding what he/she needs to grow, then I'm very skeptical of her skills.  I understand all dogs work on their own timeline, and she may be truly struggling with housebreaking right now.. but if so, THAT needs to be where her concentration is, not on PA for SD work.  (when I was 12, I taught my cat to sit and shake hands.  Didn't make me understand cats any better =P )

So in answer to your question.. no.  I wouldn't do it.  I'm not sure I would precisely call it unethical, but it is certainly... distasteful.
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Offline swimmergirl247

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 06:39:14 PM »
I'm so glad I'm not the only one. Teddy is a heavy marker and we had "issues" getting him to stop in our house until he was fixed. BUT he NEVER was out in PA setting til he would pee on command, and at that at age (I think he was 20 week before he was deemed "worthy" of PA trip) for more than 15 minutes. even now at 16 months he has a maturity cap at about 4-5 hours.
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Offline Candy3

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 06:50:37 PM »
I just looked up belly bands, too. Ew.

Offline Roxie

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 11:48:18 PM »
No. I don't believe 17 week old pups should wear a belly band in public, as I see no reason for a puppy or dog being in public places who are not able to maintain bladder control.
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Offline RealmOfMyImagination

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 12:18:08 AM »
That's so crazy.  It would be one thing to bring the dog to petsmart unmarked as a service dog just to get use to the sounds maybe but even then I don't agree with the belly band idea, if the dog can't control it's bladder it shouldn't be in any store if it be petsmart or a service dog doing in walmart or something.

 I had to look up what it was if I saw it I would thing it was a medical device not something for bladder control.
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Offline SalukiLover

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 03:21:15 AM »
That's so crazy.  It would be one thing to bring the dog to petsmart unmarked as a service dog just to get use to the sounds maybe but even then I don't agree with the belly band idea, if the dog can't control it's bladder it shouldn't be in any store if it be petsmart or a service dog doing in walmart or something.

 I had to look up what it was if I saw it I would thing it was a medical device not something for bladder control.

Exactly.   And even pet friendly stores could stop being pet friendly if they find themselves with dog pee on the floor.  Just sayin'.   :wink:
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Offline RealmOfMyImagination

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 04:26:41 PM »
That's so crazy.  It would be one thing to bring the dog to petsmart unmarked as a service dog just to get use to the sounds maybe but even then I don't agree with the belly band idea, if the dog can't control it's bladder it shouldn't be in any store if it be petsmart or a service dog doing in walmart or something.

 I had to look up what it was if I saw it I would thing it was a medical device not something for bladder control.

Exactly.   And even pet friendly stores could stop being pet friendly if they find themselves with dog pee on the floor.  Just sayin'.   :wink:

Yeah I agree completely, every time I go into petsmart there's almost always dog pee on the floor (sometimes on the product itself) where people don't clean up after their dog, or that smell of dog pee to other dogs and then untrained dogs want to mark their territory. 
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Offline swimmergirl247

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 04:39:51 PM »
I can tell its very hard for my body NOT to mark in stores like pet smart. but the minute he lifts his leg. we turn around and walk right out. he gets sad and he's tail is betwen his leg. but he gets the message
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Offline SalukiLover

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 05:38:43 PM »
That's so crazy.  It would be one thing to bring the dog to petsmart unmarked as a service dog just to get use to the sounds maybe but even then I don't agree with the belly band idea, if the dog can't control it's bladder it shouldn't be in any store if it be petsmart or a service dog doing in walmart or something.

 I had to look up what it was if I saw it I would thing it was a medical device not something for bladder control.

Exactly.   And even pet friendly stores could stop being pet friendly if they find themselves with dog pee on the floor.  Just sayin'.   :wink:

Yeah I agree completely, every time I go into petsmart there's almost always dog pee on the floor (sometimes on the product itself) where people don't clean up after their dog, or that smell of dog pee to other dogs and then untrained dogs want to mark their territory.

YUCK!  But, you know, we're dog lovers and we aren't supposed to be bothered by such things.   :wink:
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Offline Azariah

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Re: do you think its ethical to have a pup wear a belly bnad in public
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2016, 06:39:24 PM »
Belly bands are a lifesaver if you have a veteran dog. I saw people say ew and just throwing that out there. My first dog had high idea of prednisone his last few months of life and he often could not make it outside in time. This helped us allow him to roam the house and have a good life till he passed.

All of that being said at 17 weeks a puppy should be able to hold it for the limited time it is being trained with an experienced handler. I have always done puppy class around 10 weeks and do not remember having many accidents. I usually took mine outside mid class in case. But a puppy can hold it for 8 hours in a crate usually by that age.

Other than that the only time I have heard people use belly bands us for marking. Marking is where a make intact dog is letting others know something is his. It is sonewhat instinctual but can be directed. My male tried that once inside and I was there. He decided it was not a good idea to repeat that. A good reason to always have a puppy within eyesight if not crated. You would not want a sd to think marking indoors is okay. I let my male non sd mark outdoors on some stuff that is pretty benign like my gate. I do not let him mark things like the entrance to hotels. I have seen this at breed nationals and it is not courteous. Training goes into this. I was marked when he was about one outside after he got out of the van. He learned that was not a good idea either. Has not happened since.
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