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Author Topic: Others with same breed  (Read 808 times)

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Offline ccunnin3

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2014, 12:10:39 PM »
ATB, we get it, you hate SCWTs. But I believe that every dog is an individual. There may be fewer good service dog candidates in one breed than another, but that doesn't mean that every single member of the breed  has "zero place in the SD candidates!"

That said, your point is moot anyway because writtenlady has, if I recall correctly, gotten a goldendoodle puppy.

Offline springingpups

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2014, 05:16:42 PM »
Generally speaking, I prefer old world (generally little known) real life working/nanny breeds for the job. They typically are far healthier/stable dogs, that live about 50%~100% longer then common breeds! Generally i won't consider labs, goldens, poodles, dobes, rottis, st bernards, collies, etc. because their breeding has been so poor as to make it unsafe/unwise to use them! Most don't live past 4 or 5, have major system defects, behavioral/health issues, etc!

Are you seriously suggesting that Labs and goldens make poor SD candidates?  There's a reason most programs use well-bred Labs and goldens.  FWIW, Labs and goldens have an average lifespan of 10-12 years, not 4-5 years, and reputable breeders health-test to ensure that they produce healthy puppies.
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2014, 05:46:27 PM »
I don't think it's reasonable to make broad assumptions about a whole breed other than maybe noting what the breed was intentionally bred for.  I mean, it's worth noting that herding breeds will tend to chase things more so on average than say scent hounds because that characteristic was intentionally selectively bred into them for a specific purpose (herding).  But to dismiss an entire breed based on personal bias isn't much different than being racist.

There is no breed out there that is consistently well-bred or consistently badly bred.  No breed that is the be-all and end all and no breed that is useless.  There is no one breed that is perfect and none that is horrible.  Some individual breeds may tend to produce successful candidates for a specific purpose at a higher rate than others but that doesn't mean it's impossible for other breeds to also produce a successful candidate.

As it happens I personally knew a Wheaten SD and he was lovely.  His owner was one of the people in our lobby group to get the SD laws changed in our state so I saw a lot of him, and I saw him in difficult circumstances where making a good impression was important.  He did not disappoint.

Statistically you're going to tend to be better off with a lab or golden for service work (higher success rate on average), but that doesn't mean Weatens are out of the running.
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Offline ATB

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2014, 11:27:54 PM »
I don't hate wheatens! I don't hate any dog (though a few wheatens have more then pushed my buttons)! I actually for bad to the breed as a whole, mostly pity!

I already said that I am sure you could point to the atypical but those who are knowledgeable on SCWT, admits they are largely an extremely high maintenance, neurotic dogs! Yeah some may occassionally be sane but they were not bred for sanity! They were bred for top level drive, animal aggression & the spunk needed to chase a large rodents, pests into crazy environments & kill them!

Everything about these dogs is the most work (training, workouts, grooming, etc) but they can make wonderful ratters, agility, flyball (& even certain jobs) where they can be free to be their neurotic selves! The shear grooming demands are to the extreme (if you don't they will needlessly suffer horrid skin problems! Most disabled people have enough on their plate without adding +1~3hrs daily brushing, +daily shower, +weekly nails, teeth, etc; + 3~5hr full make over every 4~6 weeks; +doubling or tripling the typical required workouts/training! The list goes on, frankly my clients aren't coming to me to get them a dog they need to fix or turns the person to the helper instead of being helped!

Besides the simple truth is I would put my double coated, shedding nightmare up against the so-called hypoallergenic dogs any day; & I can be sure almost no one reacts to my well groomed SD but at least some react to the hypo dog breeds (though anyone can react to anything)! I've seen lots of people allergic to SCWTs! They always feel ripped off when they learn their hopes for an easy allergy fix are dashed!

Aside all this, the larger problem is generations of poor breeding! Wheatens may have had an edge for being slightly less likely to cause an allergy but that attracted the backyard breeders to the SCWTs & the consequences to the health/well being/genetics of the breed has created a breed that I pay no attention when selecting SD candidates! I have too much riding on the success of the match that I avoid anything but the best!

Actually the same principle applies to why I don't typically use labs, goldens, poodles, st bernards, dobies, rottis, etc. They all have been the victims of social popularity that attracts the bad breeders & ruins the breed genetics resulting severe health issues & short lifetimes! I am not putting 1~3years (up to 5) of my life for a dog that will die/wash out in less then 5 years? My last guy was 14 & able/willing to work right to the end! He was 115~125lbs & 29" at shoulder!

Even if they get to 7/8 you are lucky! These breeds have all been damaged by generations of poor breeding & the flaws are obvious! Labs & golden used to have great fronts & rears but now dysplasia is rampant & they can't rightfully placed for physical bracing, balance, guide, etc. They aren't bad dogs but when the choice is a healthier (on average), longer lifetimes, lower genetic risk; i am going to choose the latter! Again with all that's riding on the outcome, it pays to be picky & cautious! Its even easier when you are knowledgeable about the various wonderful rare breeds without all the baggage!

At the end of the day, i keep saying breed is less important then the individual dog themselves! I have always said, if I had wheaten, lab, etc. candidate in front of me that was otherwise perfect & the handler understood all the pieces, then I'ld consider the dog!

I am not saying SCWTs are bad dogs just typically poor candidates! I also said I am sure there are exceptions to the rule &/or wonderful wheatens, just that there is better choices!

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Offline ccunnin3

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2014, 12:02:29 AM »
Okay, I'll bite. If you don't agree with using a lab, golden, poodle, St Bernard, dobe, rottie, or wheaten what are these "wonderful" rare breeds you *do* recommend?

And where are you getting your life expectancy information from? I'd like to see a reputable source that says the average Golden only lives 7-8 years.

Offline ATB

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2014, 01:32:48 AM »
I referred to both actual life expectancy & working life...

Reality with bad breeding is poor (relatively speaking) health, stability, trainability & life spans... Many great breeds are so mangled dobies that used to live 12-14 aren't living to 4 or 5! The problems endemic across most common, popular breeds... Even breeding programs are no promises because the problems are so wide spread/far reaching & the AKC, CKC, etc. are so useless at addressing these issues that even having full lineage, histories, kennel club members who are damaging breed integrity!

I am NOT saying all pure bred, common breeds are bad! They aren't! But some pretty screwed up stuff has been done to the breeds! That doesn't even consider the inbreeding being done! I am not saying the uncommon breed dog will always be better then every pure bred common breeds! Just that at least haven't had that insult against them...

Frankly, your comment "ok, I'll bite what rare breed is right" concerns me deeply! There are quite literally hundreds of breeds (not even considering mixes/mutts) & only a few of them fall into the category of damaged common breeds. After that there are near countless variations! I'ld argue I have a far better chance of finding the right combo by saying screw breed, instead carefully assessing dogs that fit the overarching requirements i.e. Size, personality, energy level, jobs, trainability, stability, etc!

I am not limiting myself to a retriever, shepherd, poodle, etc! Either way, I need to know far more about the client before I could rec comend a breed, with the understanding that the final match may not be the desired breeds but is still an ex celllent SD/pet & more importantly the right match!

Do I have favorite breeds, sure we all do... Overall I like unknown (generally) breeds, ideally working groups, single coat/short hair (least grooming, 5~10 minutes brushing/+shower daily with 30~60 minutes monthly for full grooming)? Confident, easy going, self assured, aware, etc... I'll say lets look at giant breeds that live at least 10 years, so on & on until I find the right dog for that client!

Either I am too concerned about larger details & then far more interested with the more minute elements!  Regardless of breed, when the dogs the right match that's all that matters. When you are trying to hedge your bets in beginning no sense limiting yourself to some very troubled breeds!

Adam

Offline Kirsten

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2014, 06:33:57 AM »
This thread is about one individual's choice of a specific breed. It is not and was not an invitation for you to rant against that breed as being inherently horrible or against all popular SD breeds. Knock it off. I've had to review three of your rants this morning. All are either verbal attacks on other members or violent rants about maiming/killing dogs with illegal weapons, or using attack trained dogs to menace others. ENOUGH WITH THE VIOLENCE ALREADY. KNOCK IT OFF!!!
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"The one absolute, unselfish friend that man can have in this selfish world -- the one that never proves ungrateful or treacherous -- is his dog." -George G. Vest

Offline QueenSnappy

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2014, 09:24:18 AM »
If someone is willing to put up with whatever shortcomings you believe a specific breed has or not has - why do you care?  Why are you knocking their choice?  How does it affect you?  Have you worked with every single Wheaten on the face of the planet to know that every single one is not cut out for service work of any kind? 


Offline arrianya

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Re: Others with same breed
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2014, 01:29:11 PM »
Bcs can make good SDs, and depending on breeding, are not always high energy :wink:  I'm owned by two Med energy working line couch potatoes.   As in they are go go go when it comes to work, but they have NO problems being lazy when the works done.   Same experience with my Aussies, though they are a bit more "driven" than my bcs are.
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