Author Topic: Training your own SD  (Read 5459 times)

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Offline penybobeny

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Training your own SD
« on: June 08, 2006, 08:35:14 AM »
I have looked on this forum and have not seen a definitive answer here on the pro's and con's of training your own SD as opposed to getting one from a recognized organization...

I am training my own dog for many reasons, but no, I am not stupid enough to do it completely alone, my chihuahua pup (21 weeks old as of this post) is finishing his puppy obedience and will go on to the intermediate then advance classes, at the same time I have been teaching him to 'mark' (touch with his nose) items, hold and release items, pick up items I drop, dig the mail from the mailbox, get my phone or inhaler from my purse... ect, and he is picking it all up as fast as I can teach him and remembering the commands when asked. (We work on these things throughout the day... the little guy is a tad overweight now from all the training treats used with clicker training if you can call 6 pounds overweight... lol... the vet said he has love handles!)

It was not until after I contacted the usual organizations that I decided to go out on my own to do this... I have MS with permanent nerve damage in both arms and hands and cannot hold the harness of a dog big enough to pull me in my wheelchair. (something every organization I contacted insisted I had to have)  And none of them would consider training a small breed that could ride on my lap or even testing one when I was done training because they insisted that a chihuahua could not be a SD!

My doctors all agree on my pup (who has been going with me to appointments since he was 9 weeks old with their blessings), my Vet did a thorough exam and said that he was fit for the work and should be perfect, my obedience trainer says he is the calmest chihuahua she has ever met and she thinks that when he demonstrates his 'non-puppy-kindergarden' skills he is remarkable and will help me past the usual classes to polish his tasks.

Amazingly, the biggest critics I come across are people who are deeply involved with different organizations... they hear the horror stories of people abusing the ADA ruling and the moment that they hear 1- that I am training my own dog and 2- that it is a chihuahua they roll their eyes and lecture me about ruining it for the REAL SD owners... sighs.  Many groups are now pushing so that only dogs certified by these organizations can be in public... and if that ever happens then I will once again look at a life of dependence.

Loki will be my ticket to Independence, with him I will not be afraid that I need my phone and cannot get to it, I will not be afraid that I will have an asthma attack and unable to tickle my inhaler out of my purse... I will not have to depend on someone else to take me out in public because I would feel secure that with Loki with me I can handle things... if I drop something he can get it for me and I will not fall from my chair trying to pick up the item with numb fingers that will not co-operate.

I researched the laws in my state and spent more time looking for a blaze orange leash that was not so heavy it dragged him down then I have ever looked for anything for myself, because in my state a SD must be on a blaze orange leash, but I am breaking one law because only a certified trainer may take a SDIT in public! (I think about all the puppy raisers that need to take their charges into different settings to acclimate them who break that backward law)
I have studied the laws, by-laws, rights and stipulations... I cringe when I see news articles or editorials against SD's in public due to abuse of the ADA of 1990...

my pack:
Lilly- 7 yr old Lhasa Apso princess
Tango- 3 yr old Lhasa Apso commedian
Loki- 7 month old long hair Chihuahua SDIT

Offline magolin

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2006, 10:02:28 AM »
Chi chi dogs are cool!  I'm going to get one one of these days!

As far as the leash thing goes,
Kirsten, can the state require that?  I thought the ADA says SDs don't have to be marked in any special way?

In any event...welcome to the group!
Maggie
SDIT - Diesel

Online springingpups

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2006, 01:13:45 PM »
You don't need to break state law in order to socialize your pup.  In fact, you can train a dog to be a SD (including public access training) without ever taking into a place where dogs aren't allowed.  Kirsten's done it, so I'm hoping she'll chime in here.

Also, your pup is really too young to be considered a SDIT.  Consider him a SD candidate instead, and be careful not too put too much pressure on him.  You don't want to have him burn out.
Lindsay and Grady the Delightful Dalmatian :trx:

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Offline Kirsten

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2006, 01:29:55 PM »
The problems with owner-training:

1)  Low success rate.  An inexperienced trainers odds of correctly selecting a candidate are 1:100.

2)  What to do if the dog washes out--do you rehome?  keep the dog?  can you afford another?

3)  Inexperienced trainers tend not to have the skill to realize when their dog is not suited to the work or not sufficiently trained.  What does it mean when a dog blinks?

Contrary to popular myths, owner-training is neither faster nor less expensive than going through a good program.

All of that said, is it possible to owner-train a good service dog?  Sure.  I've done it.  But I apprenticed under an experienced trainer for a year to learn the craft.  Not everyone who sets out to learn to train dogs, no matter how hard they try, will be able to.  I stink at chemistry.  I studied really really hard, but I still stink.  It doesn't make me stupid or lazy.  It just makes me a bad chemist.  (Good thing I'm an engineer instead :wink: )  If a person has never trained an advanced dog before, and I'm not talking about pets, then their odds are slim.  If a person has at least put a CD on a dog, their odds are more promising.

Now, program dogs are not inherently better than owner-trained dogs by a long shot.  I've put my owner-trained dog up against some program dogs and mine was clearly the better trained dog.  There are good programs as well as bad.  I've seen some bad program dogs.  Unfortunately, most of the bad dogs out there are owner-trained.  Hence the bad rep.  Most of the stellar dogs are also owner-trained, but trained by folks with a lot of experience.

Puppy raisers do not have legal access to public accommodations.  They must ask permission, and so must you.  My state does not permit owner-trainers, yet I have trained excellent service dogs.  It is not necessary to drag a dog around everywhere to train it.  A good trainer will know what the goal is of each outing and can replicate that in non-public access situations.  We practiced elevators in a parking garage, for example.  It didn't have to be elevators.  It could have been on a teeter-totter at a local park.  It could have been on a swing bridge.  Any old "floor" that moved would have sufficed.  The key is I wasn't really training "elevators," I was training, "surfaces that move."

When my current dog, who never stepped foot in a public accommodation until he had finished training, did so with complete confidence as if he had been doing it all his life.

Be aware that breaking state laws can result in fines and/or jail time (depending on the state) or loss of future rights.  In any case, it gives owner-trainers a bad name.

Re: orange leash

The ADA does not cover the training of SDITs.  If one is to have training access rights, they must come from the state.  If the state conditions those rights on things like liability insurance, special markings, or being a certified trainer, then you must comply or you don't get to use the right.

After the dog is fully trained, you can switch over to the protection of the ADA.  So in a state that requires orange leashes (and several do), you must use an orange leash during training, but can ditch it once the dog is trained.
Kirsten
with Cole, Luna, and Ruby

 "I come from a country that raises corn, cotton, cockleburs, and Democrats. I'm from Missouri, and you've got to show me." --Missouri Congressman Willard D. Vandiver, 1899

Offline penybobeny

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2006, 02:39:02 PM »
Thanks for all the responses...

As I said before, my reason for going the owner trained route was because no organization would or could help me with my need for a small breed assistance dog... but I am not foolish enough to go this alone and am having my pup go through all the regular obedience classes, working with a behaviorist to make sure that he is handling everything well, and will be getting help with the advance training in specialized skills.
(I found a Public Access Test and am using it as a guideline)

In response to the question of what will happen to Loki if it turns out he cannot handle being a SD, he will not be re-homed... he is home.  All of these things were considered when we brought him into the home and when he came here it was with a promise that no matter what he was staying.

I am careful with his training on special tasks and only do it for short periods of time throughout the day, but I can actually see it in his face when something clicks, he gets so excited... just last night I asked my husband if he wanted the lamp off so he could enjoy his movie on TV, I pointed to the lamp when I said it and Loki put his paws on the side table and touched the lamp with his nose (a touch lamp) turning it off then looking up at me, tail going like there was no tomorrow... he of course got a belly rub for it!  It was the first time that he did the task outside of training.

I have looked but cannot find any training facilities in my area that offers SD training for owner trained dogs and have yet to find one in my region or even state that will test an owner trained SD or even offer suggestions.  :-\ That kind of help and/or resource would be a huge boon in my opinion.
my pack:
Lilly- 7 yr old Lhasa Apso princess
Tango- 3 yr old Lhasa Apso commedian
Loki- 7 month old long hair Chihuahua SDIT

Online springingpups

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2006, 06:57:39 PM »
Try contacting your local IAABC consultant to see if they can help you find a trainer.

The website is http://www.iaabc.org/c_locator_ham_ne.htm and just scroll to the bottom of the list to find consultants in and near Virginia.
Lindsay and Grady the Delightful Dalmatian :trx:

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Offline penybobeny

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2006, 07:04:20 AM »
Thanks, Springingpups...
I checked out the site and the closest one is still too far away... the best I can do for now is just continue with Loki's training through obedience and after his advance class continue with private lessons with the trainer to perfect his tasks.  We are using a certification test I found online from one of the major organizations as a guideline, and yes... I know that he has well over a year of training ahead of him, and passing that test does not mean that he is done... he will be training and learning the entire time he is working as well.
my pack:
Lilly- 7 yr old Lhasa Apso princess
Tango- 3 yr old Lhasa Apso commedian
Loki- 7 month old long hair Chihuahua SDIT

Offline Kirsten

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2006, 10:16:51 AM »
If you're talking about ADI's test, it is weak and not representative of what real service dogs face in the real world.  It doesn't address access disputes, nor being bumped, petted, grabbed, or distracted by the public, among other things.  I do an ATTS temperament test (not a do-it-yourself test as it is adminstered by a specially trained behaviorist) in addition.  Luna's TT is coming up this fall.  Ruby will have to wait until next year's because she won't meet the age cut-off in time for the test this year.  They have to be 18 months and she'll only be 14 months.

Let's see, other things not covered in the ADI test.....

-heavy crowds
-stays out of site (necessary for mammograms and other medical proceedures)
-proofing (distraction training)
-obstacles and surfaces (try an expanded wire staircase some time....)
-medical equipment
-machinery
-public transportation
-things falling
-bad shopping cart drivers
-screaming crowds and loud games/concerts
-fireworks
-traffic

There's lots more, but I think you get the picture.
Kirsten
with Cole, Luna, and Ruby

 "I come from a country that raises corn, cotton, cockleburs, and Democrats. I'm from Missouri, and you've got to show me." --Missouri Congressman Willard D. Vandiver, 1899

Offline my4winds

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2006, 03:19:49 PM »
okay, what is an ATTS test?
Myra       

Offline my4winds

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2006, 07:34:10 PM »
Today service dogs are so popular, and a lot of people that are relatively competent dog trainers think that service dog training is just another venue.

That is so not the case.  In service dog training, it is really important that the trainer has some familiarity with disability, and hopefully, the specific disability a person is training the dog for.

In my classes, while training the dog, and tasks and exercises are important, I also teach a lot of different things about how to be with a service dog in public places, such as heading for the back or side of the restaurant, whenever possible, and tucking the dog up against the wall, instead of in the way or where people are walking by.

Ultimately, if you are a really smooth service dog handler/dog team, people barely notice that a dog is even with you.  I am always complimented when I am leaving a restaurant, or any public place, and people say "I didn't even realize you had a dog with you."

There are so many "situations" it is necessary to train for, such as your dog understanding that medical professionals may need to mess around with you, and they need to back off at these times, and not try to get in the middle of things.

Like getting on a city bus with a SD, especially if you use a wheelchair.  Like how to handle the dog when you go through a buffet line in a restaurant.  Like just dealing with people who approach you and ask if they can pet your dog, or don't, and just barge in and put their hands on the dog.  Even elevator and escalator behaviors.

It really annoys me when people that are dog trainers tell clients that they will take them on as an experiment or experience to learn about service dog training.  Disability is an entirely different world to live in, and without some idea about that world, a person just doesn't have a clue about what traveling through the world from the perspective of disability means.

Am I ranting, I guess so. 

When people are self-training service dogs, and some well-meaning dog trainer assures them that they can train a service dog, even though they have no experience, I feel very protective and defensive of our community.  I heard recently about a person who is going to classes with her dog that she wants to be a service dog, and the trainer is making fun of her about stuff that are actually symptoms of her disability she can do nothing about.

I really appreciated it when my agility teacher, as I was struggling with front and rear crosses, the footwork, and the body movements, said, Myra, since back surgery, you have a different body, and just because you knew how to do this before, the body that you have now, may not remember.  Let's slow down and work out some footwork you can actually do, instead of thinking you have to do it like everybody else does.  I had gone to a seminar, and the teacher there looked at me trying to do these moves, and said, Myra, your body doesn't rotate.  When people are doing these moves, their shoulders lead, and then their hips follow, you don't turn that way.  (Well, my back is fused).  I had been so frustrated for weeks trying to do these fancy turns and steps everybody was doing with ease.  I felt totally retarded.  Well, it turns out the way they were doing it didn't work for me, because my body doesn't do that.

These people have been so patient with me wheeling my wheelchair up to the agility ring, getting up, staggering around, sometimes falling down.  Last summer after knee surgery, before I broke my foot, I couldn't really walk, and still, they were totally supportive about me getting out there and figuring out how to be able to get my dog in the right place.  They are developing a type of training where I use exaggerated arm movements to signal my dog, where other people are using their bodies.  And you know what, now, a year later, I am starting to be much less uncoordinated.

I had looked at agility training as physical therapy.  Right after I got my foot out of the cast, after two months, my ankle had forgot how to bend, and was very upset about the idea.  I was out there, in agility class, limping slowly around. The teacher said, Myra, that looks so extremely painful.  I said, don't watch.  It is extremely painful, but I can be having pain sitting around my house doing nothing, or, I can be having pain out here doing agility.  And I have the idea that the exercise and movement will help me to recover quicker.

So while a particular trainer may have a lot of experience in one area, and be able to adapt what they are teaching to a person's limitations around their disability, if one is lucky enough to find a patient trainer who will, it doesn't mean that the trainer can spontaneously make the leap to know what it takes to train a service dog.  And I feel that trainers who think that they can are doing a major disservice to people who are trying to train a dog to be a service dog.

Just my opinion.  I can be wrong, like anybody else.  I can get off-course, like anybody else.  But I think it is important to be aware of your trainer's background and area of expertise, and not assume that just because they are an experienced and good trainer, that they necessarily can understand the perspective of what it takes to train a service dog.
Myra       

Offline Ilghaus

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2006, 08:43:14 PM »
Quote
what is an ATTS test?

The American Temperament Test Society, Inc. (ATTS) is a national not-for-profit organization (registered in the state of Missouri) for the promotion of uniform temperament evaluation of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs.

ATTS was established to:

Provide for a uniform national program of temperament testing of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs.
Conduct seminars to disseminate information to dog owners, dog breeders and evaluators (testers) concerning dog psychology, motivation, reaction and other aspects of temperament testing.
Recognize and award certificates to dogs that pass the requirements of the temperament evaluation.
Work for the betterment of all breeds of dogs.
Select, train, prepare and register temperament evaluators.


The ATTS website is
www.atts.org


TJ
Karl, Chase and Star / Men-Leigh (01-01-95 to 05-30-05), Casey (04-11-02 to 02-01-10)
:tj:  :karl:        Executive Director, Assistance Dog Advocacy Project (ADAP)

Offline penybobeny

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2006, 12:23:33 AM »
Thanks for the link to the ATTS site... as I have said, I would prefer to work with someone who is certified in SD training, but without that available to me I have to do what I can with what I have available.

My trainer is not a SD trainer but a obedience/agility clicker trainer and we both know that she cannot help me after the obedience other than helping me with perfecting tasks...

I know that there are many in the Sd owner/handler community who do not like the idea of owner trained dogs for service work and even less that like the idea of small breeds as service dogs and I know that I am fighting an uphill battle, but I am more than willing to listen to advice and learn from anyone that is willing to take the time to help me in my quest.
my pack:
Lilly- 7 yr old Lhasa Apso princess
Tango- 3 yr old Lhasa Apso commedian
Loki- 7 month old long hair Chihuahua SDIT

Offline my4winds

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2006, 12:33:01 AM »
Debi Davis had a papillion. 
Myra       

Online springingpups

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2006, 12:37:15 AM »
I checked out the site and the closest one is still too far away.

Get in contact with a consultant even if they're too far away to work with you.  They may very well be able to refer you to a trainer nearer your location.
Lindsay and Grady the Delightful Dalmatian :trx:

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Offline my4winds

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Re: Training your own SD
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2006, 12:56:20 AM »
I work with a few people that travel, for a "workshop" five days every three or four months, or hire me to travel to them.  Ultimately, I think it is worth it.  The problems I end up having to "fix" are often much more expensive and extensive than just paying to get to a trainer in the first place.

I have a pup I am training to be a hearing dog in Austin, Texas.  She picked her up at the end of December.  The last two weeks of April I went and stayed with her for two weeks to train her and the dog.  We are in touch by phone and email.  She will be coming here during the summer for a couple weeks of training.  In November I will go back for two more weeks.

Ultimately, even though it was an investment for her to bring me there, and come here, and pay me to work with her, she is much more likely to end up with a service dog, and she is determined that this should happen.  The classes that she goes to there, and the trainer she is working with is okay as far as the basics, for the most part, but she really needs a hearing dog, hers is fourteen and deaf.

I have other people that temporarily relocate here to be able to train with me.  We do an initial month of training, and then they come back every three months for the next step.  It isn't ideal, but, they are very serious about ending up with a working service dog.

In the equation of having a service dog, to be able to best stack the odds in your favor, the best chance you have is to contact the closest experienced service dog trainer and make arrangements with them to get together on a regular basis.
Myra       

 


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