ESA impersonating a PSD ???

[louie]

Not all dogs naturally move toward the distress of their owner. How do you prove any task? I had a lab that "naturally" retrieved anything I pointed to. I didn't train him to retrieve at all. If he had been an SD I would not have been able to prove that any retrieval was a trained task. I think there is a grey area here. It's pretty interesting. Does anyone else have a solid argument regarding what makes a task a provable trained task?

[state_of_nowhere]

It's only considered a legit task if it mitigates your disability. The dog must do something that you cannot do for yourself because of your disability.

[state_of_nowhere]

Regarding the retrieval example: if the dog is just retrieving and bringing you anything and everything within it's reach, how is that a trained task? It's not. The dog does the behavior (retrieval) that mitigates your disability when you ask it to. What if you need a specific item that you cannot get? Part of the dog's task training would be differentiating among various objects or possibly responding to a laser pointer.

Really, the only time I see that proving a task becomes complicated is when you're dealing with PSDs and certain types of alert dogs that ONLY alert and do nothing else. There are far too many ESAs masquerading as psychiatric service dogs. 

[springingpups]

I had a lab that "naturally" retrieved anything I pointed to. I didn't train him to retrieve at all. If he had been an SD I would not have been able to prove that any retrieval was a trained task.

Even natural retrievers receive training to proof and reinforce their retrieving.

Would your natural retriever have retrieved a credit card?  A dime?  An item that was heavy and awkward?  Would he have retrieved it anywhere?  How about at the state fair with food on the ground?  On a moving train?  In the middle of a city next to construction?

You get the idea - a huge part of training is proofing so that the training holds up over a huge variety of settings.  It's not enough for the dog to "naturally" perform the behavior.

[louie]

I think you're missing the point. I'm certainly not saying my lab was an SD. Geez. I'm using his retrieving as an example....if he was an SD and the stuff he retrieved mitigated my disability. I'm trying to get some solid arguments going here, not trying to weasel. My lab has been dead for the past 5 years and wasn't an SD. But he had the capacity to retrieve and would retrieve without any training. IF he was then trained as an SD and part of what he did to mitigate a disability was to retrieve and the  behavior was natural for him (seriously, I would have pointed to the object and said "give" and it would have happened) then that would be a trained task according to the arguments so far. How would that differ from a dog who does not naturally move toward an owner in distress, say dissociating, and the dog is then trained to move toward that distress and apply pressure....trained task? Please don't get all defensive. I think it is a good exercise to practice making solid arguments.

[springingpups]

IF he was then trained as an SD and part of what he did to mitigate a disability was to retrieve and the  behavior was natural for him (seriously, I would have pointed to the object and said "give" and it would have happened) then that would be a trained task according to the arguments so far.

I repeat what I said before:  a huge part of training is proofing, and even natural retrievers need proofing.

[Cera]

My lab has been dead for the past 5 years and wasn't an SD. But he had the capacity to retrieve and would retrieve without any training. IF he was then trained as an SD and part of what he did to mitigate a disability was to retrieve and the  behavior was natural for him (seriously, I would have pointed to the object and said "give" and it would have happened) then that would be a trained task according to the arguments so far. How would that differ from a dog who does not naturally move toward an owner in distress, say dissociating, and the dog is then trained to move toward that distress and apply pressure....trained task? Please don't get all defensive. I think it is a good exercise to practice making solid arguments.

It becomes 'trained' when it is reinforced and proofed.  My assumption is that your dog was reinforced and, in some way or another, proofed in his retrieve.  If when he first started bringing you your dirty sock as a pup and you yelled at him and shamed him for doing so, I doubt he would have continued the strong retrieve over time.  Instead, I am fairly certian the response was positive in some way or another, even if sheer interaction or acknowledgement and attention.  When you would ask for an object you were once again reinforcing the retrieve and creating a level of reliability.

Most tasks do come from dogs natural abilities and then are carefully and percisely molded into what the PWD specifically needs.  Many dogs are chosen due to natural inclinations, which is why temperment is discussed so much.  Looking for a prospective SD pup, look for the one who has the natural inclination twords retrieves, curiosity, not frightened easily, and interaction with people.  Then you mold and shape the behaviors from there.  The task becomes a task when it is necessary to the PWD and reliable and proofed through all distractions.

I'm not getting why you think that a dog trained to cue the handler to dissociation would not count as a trained task.  It is something my dog is trained to do.  Her job during a dissociative episode is not to provide pressure though, but to interrupt the behavior in very task specific ways.  In actuality, the majority of her tasks as a dog for a psych disability appear very similar to mobility, hearing, and guide tasks.  The issue is when some individuals don't understand the effort that is needed to shape that natural behavior to a pinpoint trained task.  Nor have these dogs been trained enough to properly behave in public and a lot of 'alerts' I've seen are disruptive and out of control.  The other issue is that many dogs not given a very specific trained task in that instance respond out of fear and that is not helpful or best for the dog.

The other thing to question is how the task really assists with the disability.  I've seen some task lists on other sites.  One major task is coming to the handler for pets when the handler is tearful (for depression).  The DOJ has said that a dog whose sole purpose is for comfort or support is not considered a service dog.  It must be task trained to assist the individual with the activities of daily living that they cannot do on their own.  99% of the time tearfulness alone does not interfere with ADLs to the point of disability.

I don't see anyone getting defensive.  Maybe I am not reading this correctly because I do not understand what your issue is.

[louie]

No issue. Just interesting questions about when a task is a task and when a natural behavior becomes a trained task. I like to push to get clarification because I like to have it clear in my own head what an SD is and what an ESA is.

[responsiblek9]

 
 Even natural retrievers need to be taught to take direction to fetch an object.
I dont think the dog learned by magic to retrieve via directions by magic. People often teach stuff  and since they dont keep records of when and how they did it cant prove they trained the dog
 This is what training logs are for. 

Not all dogs naturally move toward the distress of their owner. How do you prove any task? I had a lab that "naturally" retrieved anything I pointed to. I didn't train him to retrieve at all. If he had been an SD I would not have been able to prove that any retrieval was a trained task. I think there is a grey area here. It's pretty interesting. Does anyone else have a solid argument regarding what makes a task a provable trained task?

[Keldrena]

This is why I'm required to keep a training log. I think it will come in handy.

[Kirsten]

It's actually pretty clear.

Animals whose sole function is to provide emotional support, comfort, therapy, companionship, therapeutic benefits, or to promote emotional well-being are not service animals."

It doesn't matter whether the dog is trained to provide that comfort or not, it still isn't a service dog.

When we get into "natural behaviors" let's be honest.  Is a judge going to sit there and agree with someone claiming their dog is a service dog because it isn't naturally affectionate and they've trained it to act that way?  Of course not.  It's absurd.

I guess that if you've never trained a dog to do a formal retrieve you could get confused about retrieving being a natural behavior.  Dogs aren't born knowing to go and get the one exact item you indicate, at the exact time you indicate, and to bring it and put it in your hand without dilly dallying along the way, mouthing or dropping delicate objects or playing keep away.  There is a difference between a dog playing fetch, and a dog retrieving on command just as there is a difference between a dog being guided around by a leash and one heeling properly.  A dog playing fetch (a natural or near natural behavior for many dogs) will not run immediately over to pick up a dime and bring it to you just because you asked.  He won't also do it for keys, soda cans, telephones, socks, credit cards, and heavy book bags.  The dime has no intrinsic value to the dog.  He does it because he was taught to, not because he's hoping for a fun game.

Some dogs have certain drives that makes them easier than others to train, but no dog is born a full blown retriever.  "Mouthy" dogs and thieves are easy to train as retrievers.  I think I made some comment to that effect to Roxie earlier about her dog not having any natural drive to retrieve.  Look at Luna's video and tell me you've ever seen a dog do that with no training.  If I really needed a dog to retrieve items, would I, in all honesty, settle for a dog who likes to play fetch and might occasionally accidentally happen to bring me what I wanted when I needed it?  Or am I going to want the dog I can count on to shove her face in icy water to get the keys I just dropped that we need to get back into the house or we're both going to die of exposure?

This is the whole problem with task shopping.
1.  I want to be able to take Fido everywhere, but how do I justify it?
2.  Look, retrieving is a task, and I can play ball with Fido.

Now compare that with:
1.  I need to be able to pick up things I can't reach after I drop them.  My ability to survive and to live independently depend on it.
2.  A specially trained service dog would be able to do this for me.

The whole loophole thing is annoying and I blame task lists for perpetuating it. 

[Spectrum]

Really, the only time I see that proving a task becomes complicated is when you're dealing with PSDs and certain types of alert dogs that ONLY alert and do nothing else.

If a dog ONLY alerts, and it's a natural alert, then it's not really an SD, as that alert is not trained. If someone needs an alert, there are probably other things the dog can be trained to do for them, too. Like for example a seizure alert dog - alerts to a seizure, but also trained in seizure response.

[Kirsten]

Cole is a seizure alert dog, but in the end his trained tasks are more important to me.  It's nice to know it's time to stay away from stairs, water and traffic, but getting to safety before the seizure does me little good if I wander back into it right after, or wind up lost and confused, unable to even ask for help.

I've actually given each of my dogs a special function.  They are working dogs and need jobs and division of labor helps keep peace in the household.  Cole does the bulk of the service work and does the public access bits including guiding and balance work.  Luna is trained to clear my airway if I vomit during a seizure and retrieve items when I am too dizzy to do it myself (or too lazy, because we have to keep up her training).  Luna must be able to clear my airway because she cannot alert me so I can prepare myself.  Ruby is trained as a hearing dog to help me differentiate between real sounds and phantom sounds caused by my brain injury.  In addition to his regular service work, Cole is responsible for doing the same as Ruby does, but with the smell of smoke (which again because of my injury, I detect frequently when it isn't really there).

Sadly, the vast majority of dogs who only alert, alert only in the mind of the owner.  They are either mistaking a dog's natural concern during or after an event for an alert (prediction of an event) or are looking for a convenient claim to justify calling their dog a service dog.  Some just dearly want to believe Fido is special.  Like the young woman on a certain board who believed that because her dog became agitated and when she went to the door to look out a skate boarder came into view and then fell off his skate board that somehow her dog was predicting the accident. 

Proving alerts in court is very difficult.  No one has yet proven dogs actually can alert, much less which individual dogs are capable of doing it.  Proving training is a no-brainer, if the dog has actually been trained.