I finally got my letter from health Dept. scanned

[yooperbug]

Hey how is everyone doing these days? I got my letter scanned to the computer. For people interested in reading it email me at bug23@charter.net and I'll give you link I have for it on my photobucket. It has my name ect. on it so I don't want to post it on here.

Amanda

[Kirsten]

It's probably best to take a black marker and mark out your personal information before publishing it anywhere any way.

As I said before, a letter from the health department isn't likely to hold up in court.  It doesn't hold up when they say service dogs aren't allowed some place, so why should it hold up when they an ESA is?  The health department doesn't get to regulate whether a business permits animals.  It can tell them they can't permit pets near food, but it cannot tell them they must permit ESAs when they don't want to. 

If a business CHOOSES to permit ESAs, the health department might tell them they can't let them near food (because of state health code violations).  They cannot be made to do so unless there is an actual law in place that says they must.  A health code is a law that can be enforced; like "no animals near food."  There is no health code that says an ESA must be permitted over the business' objections.  But it still comes down to asking the business if they will permit ESAs in the first place, which is the option you already had before contacting the health department.

Get the difference?

It isn't the health department that is the authority; it is the attorney general who is.  So get a letter from him.

[yooperbug]

Ok, I should rephrase my comment. I should say the Health Department has no objection to an ESA. If you have the support of the health department most places will allow an ESA. Now, I myself am not going to push my luck my going into restaurants and grocery stores. I do frequent the American Legion as I am a member a lot for coffee, and at times a drink or two, it's a club not a bar. This is the only place I really bring my dog to keep her socialized with people that I know very well, and it also keeps me socialized, so I hope I'm not judged for bringing my dog there. Anyway, below is the link to the letter I got from the Health Department.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/yafandas/9e7cfb1f.jpg

Thanks,
Amanda

[Kirsten]

I read the letter.  It's pretty clear they are confused about the difference between a service animal and an emotional support animal.  They advised the post to be compliant with the ADA, which is for people with service dogs, not people with emotional support animals.  I suspect they think you were referring to a PSD.  People do often confuse the two terms.

They also note in their letter that if the post chooses to refuse to let you bring your ESA the Health Department has washed its hands of it.  You won't be able to force the issue.

The Department of Justice, which enforces the ADA, has made it very clear that ESAs are not addressed under the ADA:

The Department is proposing new regulatory text in § 35.104 to formalize its position on emotional support or comfort animals, which is that ‘‘[a]nimals whose sole function is to provide emotional support, comfort, therapy, companionship, therapeutic benefits, or promote emotional wellbeing are not service animals.’’ The Department wishes to underscore that the exclusion of emotional support animals from ADA coverage does not mean that persons with psychiatric, cognitive, or mental disabilities cannot use service animals. The Department proposes specific regulatory text in § 35.104 to make this clear: ‘‘[t]he term service animal includes individually trained animals that do work or perform tasks for the benefit of individuals with disabilities, including psychiatric, cognitive, and mental disabilities.’’ This language simply clarifies the Department’s longstanding position."
-- http://www.ada.gov/NPRM2008/t2NPRM_federalreg.pdf

If you can work it out with the post, I think that is great.  However, I disagree that most places would permit an ESA just because the health department said it wouldn't violate health codes.  In my experience, most places wouldn't want an untrained dog in their facilities that they weren't required by law to admit for liability reasons.

I really do understand the need to get oneself out and amongst people.  Unfortunately, it is still up to each business to decide whether they want to permit ESAs.  You are still required to ask for permission.  You couldn't just walk in and hope for the best because you would be perceived as trying to pass off a pet as a service dog.  Many states have penalties for that.

[bj2circeleb]

My reading of the letter is that they have no idea of what an emotional support animal is. In the last paragraph they refer to your service dog, which to me clearly states that they think that it is a service animal, and not an emotional support animal and that they have no idea of the difference. If it did not say service animal in the last paragraph, I may not think that, but the reality is that you have no legal rights to be there, and to contact them saying that you were being denied access was really wrong in and of itself to me. But, that is just my opinion, and it is your choice what you decide to do.

[Roxie]

Amanda,

Your dog can only accompany you where it has permission to. It has the access rights of a pet. (except for housing.) Business owners can give you permission to bring your dog on to their property. But, they aren't obligated to do so. What I think anyway. Are you bringing your dog with you so you look like you have a SD? I don't think the reasons you posted about why you want to take your dog into businesses are valid.

You were rightfully denied access with your dog. ESA's are great! I have one. (Sara: retired SD after 11+ years) But she has no rights to any public access other than where pet dogs can be allowed.

I could be wrong, but I think private clubs (Knight Templar, Lions, Eagles, American Legion), like churches, can even refuse a SD.

Roxie and Tay

[Kirsten]

Certain private clubs are exempt from the ADA, just like churches.

Section 307 of the ADA exempts "private clubs" from the
ADA's requirements. The Department's implementing regulation, 28
C.F.R. pt. 36 (enclosed), defines a private club as a "private
club or establishment exempted from coverage under title II of
the Civil Rights Act of 1964." 28 C.F.R.  36.104. Courts have
considered a number of factors in determining whether a private
entity qualifies as a private club under title II, including the
degree of member control of the club's operations, the
selectivity of the membership selection process, whether
substantial membership fees are charged, whether the entity is
operated on a nonprofit basis, the extent to which the facilities
are open to the public, the degree of public funding, and whether
the club was created specifically to avoid compliance with the
Civil Rights Act. Even if a private entity is exempt as a
"private club" under the ADA, however, the entity's facilities
are still subject to the requirements of the ADA to the extent
that such facilities are made available for use by nonmembers as
places of public accommodation. 56 Fed. Reg. 35552-53 (1991).

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/foia/tal286.txt

See also http://www.gaspoftexas.com/private.html for some analysis.

[yooperbug]

I'm learning as I go. This board has been amazing for information and help. I made it very clear to the health dept. and the club she is not a SD she is an ESA. I myself feel safer and more secure with her around. I'm just so glad I posted the letter on here to get the proper information.

Just a thought. I hope no one gets mad at this idea. It's too bad they don't have two levels for ESA's. Level one: just being a pet no special training comfort for at home. Level two ESA's should be trained in advanced obedience so they are well trained and can go in public. I think for a level two ESA doctors and such should be more strict about, so not just any person can go in there and be able to have a level two ESA. Me personaly won't go to the store, movies, or anything like that because I'm just plain scared to. With my dog I'd feel comfortable doing them things. However my dog isn't trained in advanced obedience so she would be a level one. Maybe there's already something like this but I'd like to get people's opinions what they think ect. Is it a stupid idea, somewhat decent idea, or a good idea? Please be honest even if it hurts.

Amanda

[Kirsten]

I think that ESAs with appropriate public access training should be permitted to be used just the same as task-trained service animals.  I think it should be that way, but know for a certainty that it is not.

I understand just how much security a person can derive from an ESA.

I also know what can happen to a person with an ESA who winds up on the wrong end of a SD law.  It's horrible.  I've actually seen it happen with someone completely well-meaning who thought they were doing the right thing.  You start with a person who is already emotionally fragile and then blast them for making an honest mistake, and they may never recover from it.

The stigma and open hostility perpetrated by the general population upon those considered to be mentally defective is as destructive as it is disgusting.  Trying to reason that a person who is mentally ill might not able to stand up to an onslaught like that any more than a person with no legs can carry a child out of a fire just doesn't penetrate.

Well I see I'm headed for a rant.

Ultimately my concern in this discussion has always been for your mental safety.

Back to public access ESAs.  Unfortunately, I think it is unlikely that they will be accepted in the next ten years.  We're having enough trouble getting PSDs firmly accepted.  Just five years ago ADI was absolutely rabid against them.  They're just starting to come around, but the battle is not yet over.

Amanda, have you considered that with a severe mental disability it is extremely likely that there is at least one task that a dog might be trained to do that actually be helpful in mitigating your illness?  I'd, frankly, be shocked if there wasn't some task, somewhere that you actually need but you haven't yet recognized that it can be of benefit to you.

I don't know if you've looked over the article collection on PSDs on this site or not.  It starts on this page:  http://servicedogcentral.org/content/node/74  It includes some solid strategies for identifying  what sorts of tasks might be needed.

Task training is the easiest part of training a service dog.  I know it doesn't seem it should be that way, but it really is.  If you have a well-behaved dog with some task training, you have a foot in the door toward service-dog-dom.  Even if it turns out you aren't able to complete the full training, at least you would have a task or two that is helpful at home.  Besides, training is fun!

[Kirsten]

Amanda, if you are in the state of California, at least in some counties, yes, there is something like that already in place.  If you do live in California, check with your local animal control office to see what it takes to qualify for a special service animal license in your county.

[yooperbug]

I'm in Michigan. According to the head guy in Lansing, not just the guy at the local health dept. says they consider an ESA a SD. I do agree they are misinformed about it. I should really research it more. Besides, I love to learn about this type of stuff.

My dog doesn't do anything, she gets by with her good looks ha ha. She is very well behaved at least. She may not know how to sit and stay etc but she don't jump on people, is shy but very friendly, and she is glued to me. When I bring her someplace she just lays at my feet. So her being so mellow is a great advantage. She does do one thing and she isn't even trained to do it, if I need help up she will stand at my side and brace herself and let me use her to assist me to get up when my back is sore.

I would like to take obedience classes with her but they are expensive, and I really want to get into advanced obedience. If I can afford to take classes a lady has offered me to come to her house on Sundays to take the tracking classes with my dog, and she don't take on people unless she has worked with them so I was honored to have such an amazing trainer offer me such a thing. That is something I love to do because it's good for me to get out and do together. My dog has insecurity issues and is shy so taking obedience classes will build her confidence too, which is very important to me. Who knows we could get good at tracking together and do search and rescue because helping others is very improtant to me as well. I know this sounds really bad but are there any organizations that help pay for classes, or are there grants out there for this type of thing? I'm not looking for a hand out so please don't think that. I just need a little help and honestly don't know where to begin.

Amanda

[Roxie]

Bracing you when your back is sore mitigates what? Not relevent for an ESA for public access.

Please help me understand why you want to take your untrained ESA with you everywhere? That just isn't right ... it has no rights to access ... other than being able to take her along as a pet.

If you want to obedience train your dog, get dog training books at the library. Order books for a buck or two from Amazon. Then just try doing it!

Why are you considering taking an untrained dog and teaching it tracking before obedience?

Grants!!??? You need a 501(c)(3) and an IRS EIN to apply for and receive grants.

However! You can look for a trainer to take you under their wing for free - for cheap - or for payments... or barter your services in exchange for  dog training services. Also try PetSmart and PetCo classes. Or at your local community college. Also a long shot might be Voc Rehab.

Are you training your pet to be a good dog? Or what is your goal?

Roxie and Tay

[bj2circeleb]

Amada, I agree with what you are trying to say. I do not even care if the animal is even an emotional support animal, what I do care about is that it is public access trained and is healthy and hygienic and been handled by a competent handler. I hate seeing kids walking dogs along the street, and although I have never seen it in a public place it really scares me. Kids just do not have the emotional maturity to manage a dog, yet alone a dog in public. I would never allow a 6 or 7 year old to walk a dog alone, and yet I see it all the time. It also really scares me when kids take so called service dogs to school. I don't care about high school, but I do have a problem with a 5 year old taking a dog to school. It is not up to teachers to look after a dog during the school day. I used to be a preschool assistant and was studying to be a preschool teacher for a while, so I cannot stand the idea of having a child with a dog in that situation, or even slightly older kids, and yet it is happening every day in the US, and unforunately it is beginning to happen here in Australia now too. What I would like to see is a compulsory public access test, every two years, and proof of vet checks and the like before it can happen. I am thinking that one of the ways to help the disabled. would be to charge pet owners to sit the test, and that this could be used to supplement the cost to the disabled. I also believe that thousands of pet owners would apply and so few would pass that you could initially make thousands out of it! Just where my thoughts are at at the moment.

[Kirsten]

I've been on the nationally standardized public access test band wagon since the DOJ issued it's guidance allowing businesses to ask the task question.  Until then, I hadn't realized the extent of the problem.

Unfortunately, the DOJ has clearly stated that this will not be the case.  I don't think it will be up for review again for at least a decade.  That is unless something horrible happens that creates sufficient public outcry to cause Congress to act.

[Kirsten]

Roxie, chill.  She didn't say the bracing for a sore back was a task.  She clearly said it was not.  That doesn't mean it can't be helpful or appreciated.  My dogs do lots of things that wouldn't be considered tasks.  I'm completely capable of getting my own tissue.  But the tissue is more effective (if I want it because I'm crying) if it is delivered by an eager, cheerful, silly dog.  If I'm really tearful, she'll even shred them to make me laugh.  I call these bonuses"frosting."