Great Danes

[partypet456]

Hey
i was thinking about changing my breed from a English cocker spaniel to a great Dane or collie as the English cocker as my trainer is saying it will be to small for a psd. So I'm on a search again for the right breed and personality for me. Do anyone of  you guys and gals like or approve of either the Great Dane or the Collie ???

Thanks Carol

[Shidash]

Breed is personal choice, though size depends on the tasks. Will you need physical support or guide work from your dog? If so, your trainer may be right. If not, you should go with whatever breed you want most.

[partypet456]

No to the physical support and the guide work I beileve that with my dizziness i should just in to be in the safe side of thing that a larger breed would be the better choice

[Stefani]

Ah, the Great Dane.  I've currently got two in my house at the moment, they are clients.  Arwen is going to be five in October, and if I'm remembering correctly Opal is almost 3. 

Arwen, on this visit, is showing some signs of illness.  I don't know what it is, but I'm going to recommend to my friend that she be taken into the vet for a complete check up, including blood work ASAP.  Also Arwen has issues with joint pain.  She has never had her hips x-rayed, so I don't know if it is hip dysplasia or just arthritis.  This started a little under two years ago.  I've known Arwen since she was 8 weeks old, so I've seen her grow up.   Besides the joint pain, and now this new illness, she's been rather healthy.  I think there was a few instances of eye infections.  Awren was a fearful puppy, who is a fearful adult who uses fight to protect herself with new dogs.  When she is used to a dog, she's great, but on first meetings there is aggression, even if it is a slight growl.

Now Opal.  Opal I've known since she was seven months old.  She has thyroid issues and has had these issues for quite awhile, but I don't remember exactly when she got the diagnoses, and this has resulted in some new human aggression (Only one instance) issues while her medication is being adjusted again.  Before the issues started she was great with people (Though fearful) and dogs, when the issues started she started showing signs of dog aggression.  It wasn't severe.  Though, we have worked with these issues, and she has shown great improvement (She no longer needs to be separated from the dogs in my house, which wasn't even done for fear of them hurting her, but to prevent her from experiencing aggression before it was worked on).  Opal had to have a toenail removed a few months ago because the bed of the nail caused infection on two different occasions.  Her toe was badly swollen both times.  She has problems with ear infections, but her ears are not cropped (Arwen's are).  She also has issues with severe bad breath, which is possibly food related, and when she licks herself she transfers this smell to her body so she needs frequent baths.  Opal is also very skittish and fearful, however she was not socialized at all as a young puppy.  I did remedial socialization when her owner first got her, and she has improved a great deal.  She no longer hides from people behind her owners/my back, nor does she slip out of her collar and run away.  For a lot of the people she meets she will happily approach for petting wagging her tail.  For some, she'll tuck her tail, but she will still approach. 

Arwen drools like crazy, even when there has been no activity nor water.  Opal has never drooled since being here, even when she has had extreme exercise or water. 

You will find different answers on life expectancy of the GD all over the internet, but it is about 7 years.  I do NOT recommend them for a service dog.  It takes until the dog is about 2 years old before starting service work.  If you count that they are old age at 5 (If you are lucky), you have only three years of working time together.  After one year of working time together, you'll need to start training another dog!  I suggest going for a different breed.  I have nothing against the breed, but logically, IMO it just isn't worth it for them to try to be a SD.

[partypet456]

okay then what do you think about a collie/lassie dog???

[Stefani]

Are you thinking about a Rough Collie or a Smooth Coated Collie?  In my experience they aren't that different, just the hair, but the breeder that bred SCC that I spoke to said different.  I don't know much about the actual breeds, because I've only met a limited few, and never lived with one (Even if just dog sitting).  I did a little research on SCC when I was thinking about getting one, but it wasn't extensive.  A friend that I had when I was a younger teen had a RC, Zorro.  He was very soft and you had to watch your tone with him.  From what I've heard SCC and RC are known for being soft dogs (This guy was a bit extreme).  They can be barky, but with proper training that isn't an issue.  RC and SCC have a lot of eye issues.  Zorro had to get drops in his eyes frequently.  In his later years I believe he had gone blind (But I cannot remember, he and his owner were living in another state in his older years).  This is not uncommon. 

There is also issues with sensitivity to drugs.  Collies and collie type breeds (BC, SCC, RC, Shelties, and I believe also Aussies) can have issues with a type of drug that is in most heartworm preventative pills, Ivermectin (Spelling may be off).  From a BC list where I'm a member, there is now, supposedly, a test to test for this issue.  It is a swab of the mouth, but it is like $70 and it isn't done through your vet.  You have to order it.  It also is possibly not 100%.  There is hip dysplasia issues, and in some lines elbow dysplasia is a problem (Finding a good breeder is a must).  The SCC can have issues with dry coats, I'm not sure about the RC. 

I think that's all I can share.

[Stefani]

I do want it to be known that the breeder of SCC that I spoke to had a number of her dogs go on to be service dogs.  She donated puppies to a local guide dog org. near her.

[Cait]

Collies are awesome PSDs. My first PSD was a collie (Wings). When she passed away, I began training Mal, a smooth, who has since washed out of training. His breeder donated his half-sister to me, though, and she's showing good potential so far. (Mal is barky- the barkiest dog she's ever bred, apparently- and this was a factor in washing him out. Before I got him, I had never dealt with a collie that was so bad about attention barking, but they *are* out there.)

Going with a good breeder is important. The CCA and AWCA have a pretty good emphasis and recognition program for service dogs, and many reputable breeders have produced dogs who go on to become service dogs.

The smooths and the roughs can vary in personality but in my experience- and I've got less experience with smooths- they're not THAT different. (They may vary more from lines that are all-smooth or all-rough.) Mal and Kaylee are from a breeder who breeds mostly roughs but not exclusively and Mal's sire is a smooth from a breeder who is known equally for her roughs and smooths. I am told the smooths are more energetic overall, which doesn't seem, to me, to be true, but again, my experience is limited. Mal is less energetic than Wings was and I suspect Kaylee will be in between the two. The smooths shed a moderate amount, all the time- the rough-factored smooths seem to shed more than the ones that are from all-smooth pedigrees. Mal gets REALLY hot out in the sun- at least as hot as his rough sibling- and I think it's due to color and the fact that he's got just as much undercoat as she does- it's just shorter and flatter.

Kaylee has more hair than Wings did (Wings was from working/pet lines) and the texture is different. She takes more work to keep looking her best, but MUCh less work to keep her from dropping hair all over the place. So there is a trade off- grooming time ends up being pretty similar on both.

I get much less random pounce-and-hug type problems with Mal and Kaylee (who are both tris) than I did with Wings (who was a sable)- and pounce-and-hug-kids are a HUGE distraction for all the collies I've met, so having a dog that doesn't invite that QUITE so much is nice.

Mal is 25.75", right at the top of the breed standard. I would not want a dog much larger than him for a PSD, as he's a pain to fit into places. (He also doesn't curl up very well, compared to Lindsay's Caden, for exmaple, who is 24ish"- those two inches make a BIG difference in how much space he takes up.) Kaylee is 24" and that really is a nice size, IMO. Wings was a bit smaller- 21-22"- and fit even more nicely into tight spaces.

The lifespan is good, and the main testable health problems are PRA (we JUST got a DNA test for this) and CEA. CEA is the bigger deal- MOST dogs are carriers, but even affected dogs will vary a LOT in degree. We've also got some other problems that CAN'T be tested for- so ask about them. These are bloat (scarily comomn in some lines) and epilepsy. Epilepsy is what killed Wings. HD and ED are present but not terribly common, and some lines are known for thyroid problems and allergies.

In short, like most of the breeds that have been popular at one point, collies have a nice variety of health problems, but also a really great core of dedicated breeders who ARE doing their best to breed happy healthy dogs. The collie temperament is really well suited to PSDs in my opinion- they're handler sensitive but not necessarily to the degree of being neurotic (some can be- this is to be avoided, obviously), they generalize well which makes them fairly easy to train, and their energy level is moderate, which means they're suitable for someone who's ability to exercise them may change from day to day. They're less 'busy' than Aussies and BCs, for sure. Lack of drive *can* be a problem, but not all of them are this way.

If I were adding another collie (Wait, I just did ), I would look for a young adult retiring from the show ring that had been well-socialized and health tested, rather than another puppy. Collie boys, especially, are slow to mature, and you can save a LOT of time. Bonding is NOT an issue- collies bond really deeply with their people, and while the bond doesn't transfer per se, they are PERFECTLY capable of bonding to a new owner who makes the effort to work with them.

[Kirsten]

i was thinking about changing my breed from a English cocker spaniel to a great Dane or collie as the English cocker as my trainer is saying it will be to small for a psd.

Why would a cocker be too small for a PSD?  What are you wanting it to do that a cocker can't do?  That's the place to start when selecting a dog:  what do you need it to do....

I know many PSDs that are smaller than cockers.  We even have a cocker PSD on this forum.

You really can't say that a given breed is good or not good for a PSD, because a member of any breed might be, and the vast majority of members of all breeds aren't.  The key is matching up your individual needs with the dog's individual qualities.

Sure, a cocker isn't a good choice for balance work, for bracing to help you back up on your feet, or for pulling a wheel chair, just like a German Shepherd isn't good for stuffing in a purse, under a chair, or on an airplane.

That said, there is a HUGE difference between a Great Dane and a Collie.  Why those two breeds specifically?

Start with an honest assessment of your lifestyle.  Seriously.  GDs and Collies have very different exercise needs, different housing needs, different grooming.  Are you sedentary or active?  Do you live in an apartment or house with a big fenced yard?  Are you a neat freak or a slob?  Those are significant factors in choosing between these two very different breeds.

Next, make a list of tasks you will need the dog to be able to perform.  Ask yourself whether each task would require a certain type of dog, ie a certain size, or build, or innate ability (such as a propensity for using their mouth, as a retriever might).

Then chuck the whole breed issue and go looking for a dog that meets those requirements.  Why?  Because you might find a small, hairy, very active GD or a large, short coated, couch potato collie.

[partypet456]

hey sorry it's been so long my computer was down/dead.
the reason that i was thinking about the change to Great Dane or Rough coated Collie is because my parents think that an English cocker spaniel will be to hard to find and buy the pay for the training.while the MAGDRL a great dane rescue group  would donate a dog  maybe as well as the collie group.
i think that cocker is the best bet for me because i have meet several ,  around the right size for me and everything ie the house size is a good match ect .

but i'll keep thinking about the task list as i have one already and everyone so far is /would work for the spaniel


thanks Carol

[Kirsten]

Step one, of course, is to find a trainer you can work with to help you make that selection.  We know from statistics released by Paws With A Cause that in the general population of dogs, only 1 in a hundred has all of the qualities needed to become a good service dog.  If you have not previously trained an advanced dog, your chances improve dramatically if you hire an expert to do the choosing for you.

The temperament evaluation on a PSD is critical.  Most people with mental illness are naturally drawn to dogs with clingy personalities, often called "velcro" dogs.  This is the opposite of what they really need, which is a dog with rock solid nerve who won't get drawn into the handler's emotional distress but will remain a rock of calmness in the storm of emotions.

Again, instead of focusing on breed, focus on need.  It needn't be a purebred dog.  Check with all rescues and don't exclude mixes based solely on not being purebred.

Remember that the cost of the dog itself is usually the least of your expenses.  Initial vet visits are typically $100 to $200, there's spaying/neutering, heartworm and flea preventive, dog food, beds/leads/bowls and other supplies, training, medications and so on.  I typically spend about $80 per month on my dog.  Right now food alone for a dog the size of mine is around $40 per month (up from $28 due to gas prices).

So work up your budget first, before looking for a dog.  If finances are an issue, make sure you can really afford to care for a dog.  It's heartbreaking to fall in love with one and then have to give it up because you just can't provide for it adequately.

Here are some websites on budgeting for the cost of caring for a dog:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1671&articleid=1543
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/06/peteconomics.asp
http://www.aspca.org/flash/petcarecosts/petcarecosts.swf

[diabeticgonewild]

Although they can be suitable for work (and are wonderful, gentle giants!), one concern of mine is the large size. Larger dogs tend to have a shorter life span, and therefore, they have to go into retirement sooner. This means that the benefits that you may receive from a Great Dane SD could be limited due to the characteristics of the breed.

[OTSDANE]

having had Danes all my life, I certainly know about their health problems and short life. With good care, my guys have lived an average of 9-10 years. Of course, I choose carefully. Very carefully. It pays big time to research and insist on all sorts of health checks. Cheap puppies become very expensive dogs.

But then I've been told lots of flat coats die of cancer, German Shep have tons of digestive issues... there's always something, and with Danes it's orthopedics. They pack on 100 pounds the first 6 mo of life, so anything growing that fast is bound to have potential growth problems.

The upside: size. I'm no lightweight, and my current Dane 13 mo old, if we make it through training, will be balancing, bracing, hauling school books, the whole she-bang. I'd darn near kill a cocker if I fell on them, unfortunately. A shorter dog and I wouldn't be able to make a midnight bathroom run without fumbling with a harness. So their sheer size is their advantage for me.

Another upside, is the gentle giant nature. They are typically quiet dogs, and none that I've owned or known required half the exercise of retrievers and other smaller dogs I've had and known. There are Danes on agility courses and in search and rescue vests. But most prefer to have a snooze at your feet to doing a zoomie in your living room. I have chronic fatigue, so that's a big plus! Kenai gets about 15-20 min a day of outside run time, and he's content to chill, and has all his young life.

I got him for mobility, and discovered he naturally alerted to my asthma and sleep apnea. I was so mad at him until it dawned on me why he was waking me up at night! Overall, Danes are sensitive dogs, acutely aware of even small changes in you or the environment. Corrections don't need to be especially stern more often than not. Praise will get you far with them.

The downside: size. Basic good manners has to be learned and enforced from the day you bring them home, and rule number one is "be gentle". An overly excited lab pup can knock down a child. An overly excited Dane can swing his big butt around and knock down a grown man by 6 mo old. Manners, no exceptions. And a loose leash walk is mandatory at all times. They were bred to hunt black bear, so pulling people off their feet is ridiculously easy. 

They don't fit under tables. Not without carrying the table out of cafe with them, anyway. Where to put the Dane... it requires planning. Turning them around in a tight grocery aisle requires teaching them to sit-n-spin. You'll probably get an access challenge or two for no other reason than size.

Then there's the fact that they age as fast as they grew. If you average 2 years of training, minus say retired at 7 for joints wearing out, you get 4 years of heavy duty blue collar weight bearing. Short. Yep. But if a smaller dog won't provide what you need, then that's what you have. It's not ideal, no question. But the Dane can literally pick you up off the ground by himself if need be.

The american Dane average life span is 7 years, but that includes all the dogs, including the puppy mill dogs with AKC papers (lots of them) and bad genes, to those who die from bloat, injuries, or accidents. Dane groups will tell you it's more like 8-10 years if you buy from a decent breeder.

Danes aren't naturally given to repetitive, human orchestrated obedience work. Tehy were bred to hunt without human assistance, so they think for themselves. They problem solve with frightening ease, but get bored doing the same trick over and over because you ask. Practice means you sometimes have to be fairly creative to keep them interested. Their memory is outstanding, though, and they can face situations you haven't trained for pretty darn well.

They are expensive. A good one will run $1000, and don't even look at a pup for less than $700 or you're treading on thin ice when it comes to long term health. They'll eat 5-7 cups of food a day as adults, and it can't be cheap food either or the risks of ortho problems start increasing. An accident will cost you more, too. A bloat surgery runs $1500 and up because of their size.

Danes aren't for everyone, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they aren't for anyone. They fill a niche. The Dane SD owners I know of have the same problem as I do, being very heavy or need the dog to carry heavy weight. Some are Parkinsons patients, some of them are just very tall people. Many are disabled combat veterans, believe it or not.

I find them the best fit for me. But I do not down play their shortcomings.

[Kirsten]

Thanks for the breed overview on Danes!

[J.D. Hallowell]

I have a Dane service dog I use for balance work. I need a tall dog, and one who is strong enough to support my weight. A smaller dog just wouldn't do. With good lines and good care, a Dane will live 8-10 years, at least. The lifespan certainly is something to consider if you don't need a dog for balance, but if you do, Danes are superb and one of the few breeds really up to the task of balancing a taller or heavier person. My Dane is tall enough that I don't have to have a tall handle (which would increase the leverage I apply, increasing the risk to both me and the dog when I am off-balance).

The following information is from the IAADP, specifically with reference to PSDs:
You can see the full text of the webpage here:
http://www.iaadp.org/psd_tasks.html

Different Kinds of Balance Support Work in Public

Some people find balance assistance from a service dog helpful in coping with intermittent medication side effects or symptoms which have not been successfully abated by the treatment received. When listed in the section about “assistance in a medical crisis,” the tasks detailed were intended for home use. To make these skills a viable task for the dog to perform in public settings, the dog must go on many field trips to school the dog to ignore distractions like kids, bike riders, other dogs, squirrels or people who reach out to pet dogs without permission. If the dog fails to perform as desired due to being distracted, the disabled person could be knocked off balance and injured in a fall. To keep these safety improvement skills viable, practice sessions must take place on a regular basis. Ethical use of a dog for this purpose requires the dog’s size and physical fitness via x-rays of the dog’s elbows, shoulders and hips to be evaluated by an orthopedic specialist. Only dogs scoring an OFA Good or Excellent have the degree of physical soundness to provide such support without harm to their joints.

A large sturdy dog, a minimum of 22", 55 lbs., recommended for someone up to 5'4” and 130 lbs. Taller heavier dogs, 80 - 100 lbs. would be appropriate for taller more heavily built partners, if such tasks are needed frequently. Anyone weighing over 200 lbs. needs a giant breed over 100 lbs. for this task to be appropriate. The use of a proper harness with a handle designed to distribute the person’s weight through the dog’s shoulders is customary if walking assistance needed outside the home.

NOTE: The use of smaller dogs [ 10 lbs - 50 lbs] for balance support by having the dog drag the owner along, keeping the leash taut, results in the owner putting a heavy strain on the poor dog’s neck through the collar. Whether or not it aids the owner to keep his or her balance is irrelevant, for it is ethically viewed as abusive treatment of an assistance dog, which is inexcusable. Orthopedic and nerve damage can occur to the spine if the ignorant or inconsiderate owner puts their weight on a small to medium size dog’s spine to boost themselves to get up off the ground.

To use a puppy with their green growing bones for this “task” is reprehensible.

    * Assist to Feet after panic attack, flashback, seizure, dizzy spell, other difficulties.
    * Steady Person to walk if panic attack leaves person weak and /or dizzy from medication, utilizing a special harness for that purpose.
    * Steady Person to safely climb steps or to descend a staircase.
    * Steady Person who feels nauseous or faint, due to med side effects on a bus or subway.
    * Steady Person who feels nauseous or faint due to side effects on an elevator.