Author Topic: Pilling problems  (Read 125 times)

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Offline Sheenar

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Pilling problems
« on: February 03, 2012, 10:06:25 AM »
So, Leon and I are having a disagreement about him taking his medication from the vet.

Now, he had been taking it okay for the first couple of days (Tuesday and Wednesday), but yesterday and this morning, he decided he was NOT going to be swallowing his antibiotic any longer (he broke out in another skin infection from that biscuit incident at the pet store). He took his steroid tablets just fine, but the antibiotic capsule --no.

Yesterday and this morning, I ask him to open his mouth and then push the pill as far back as I can. Leon tries to close his mouth while my fingers are still trying to push the pill in the right place --not hard, but it still hurts --he does the same when I brush his teeth (closes his mouth on the toothbrush so I can't move it).

Then I hold his mouth closed and stroke his chin/neck downward to encourage him to swallow. He struggles and then forcibly spits out the pill (projectile spitting) --I wound up wearing the pill on my shirt yesterday (but it was still intact, so I put it back in and he swallowed it) --this morning, he spit it out whole again (even though I had tried bribing him with a treat to get him to swallow--I let him see me put the treat away after he spit out the pill) --I put the pill back in --he spit it out again --this time, all over my hands and my carpet (it disintegrated. Not sure how much of the medication got down, but I don't want to try another pill b/c of fear of overdose.

Any ideas? He can't have the pill pockets, meat products or cheese --or wheat or corn, etc. I want to make sure the rest of his antibiotics gets in him (and teaching him not to clamp down would be nice for pilling and brushing his teeth both).
Partnered with Leon --successor to Pebbles.

Online k1maplewd

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 10:16:55 AM »
peanut butter?
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Offline state_of_nowhere

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 10:43:43 AM »
This is totally (but not completely) unrelated to your request for help, but what is it with vets prescribing antibiotics with allergies lately? It makes zero sense to me how an antibiotic is supposed to help with an autoimmune response....
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Offline Magesteff

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 11:44:47 AM »
If the dog scratches or bites and makes a wound the antibiotics are to keep it from becoming infected. Overkill I know.
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Offline Magesteff

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 11:48:06 AM »
Can Leon have soy four, rice flour, or barley flour? As Katrin suggested with the peanut butter, you might be able to mix the rice flour with the peanut butter to make it into more of a solid thing that you could wrap around the pill and it wouldn't be as  sticky/messy as plain peanut butter.
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Offline Sheenar

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 11:49:44 AM »
Leon's on antibiotics for the skin infection (he breaks out in a superficial staph & fungal infection on his skin because of the underlying food allergy reaction --at least, that's how his dermatologist explained it).

I'll have to look at the sheet of can haves/can't haves again to make sue he can have peanut butter before I try it.

He can have rice flour (the recipe I was given for dog treats are essentially gluten-free cookies).
Partnered with Leon --successor to Pebbles.

Online k1maplewd

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 12:35:16 PM »
or what about canned salmon dog food to put it in?
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Offline Sheenar

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 01:09:11 PM »
His dermatologist said no animal protein sources (no meat or dairy) since we don't know what he is allergic to (other than chicken for sure --he was reacting to something still --either in his Pacific Stream kibble or in his treats --hence the change over to the hypoallergenic diet).

According to his sheet:
 Can have: canned pumpkin, unsweetened applesauce, sweet potatoes, canned beans, fruits, veggies (no corn, raisins, grapes, baked beans, black-eyed peas, soy, wheat).

Peanut butter isn't on either the can or can't have lists, so I'll have to ask. Maybe try canned pumpkin or sweet potato?
Partnered with Leon --successor to Pebbles.

Offline Magesteff

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 02:06:25 PM »
Canned pumpkin, sweet potato or apple sauce in the rice flour to make a home made pill pocket type thing might work, if Leon likes those flavors.
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Offline Sheenar

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 02:17:43 PM »
Will see about getting some oat flour (or similar) --Leon throws up rice. :sad:
Partnered with Leon --successor to Pebbles.

Offline responsiblek9

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 05:03:06 PM »
 :trx: Many times in my experience dog's allergies cause a weaker immune system issue.
Seems like the body is so busy having an immune responce to an allergy, it does not fight off common infections as readily.
Skin infections, eye infections (where the allergy has the areas inflamed and vulnerable)  crop up more in a dog who has an allergic  reaction and then bacteria sets up quickly.

Boosting the immune system naturally can actually make the allergic reactions stronger as the immune system gets a stronger responce to the allergins . Catch 22. One has to eliminate the allergens before doing things to boost the immune system.

Corticosteroids weaken immune systems and make a dog not as able to fight off bacterial infections. Viral infections in a dog with a compromised immune system can be quite scary also..  :paw:
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Offline BlindMag

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 05:15:54 PM »
Ask your vet (or another vet) if they have one of those little pill popper devices?
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Offline Sheenar

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 07:19:23 PM »
I think the approach I'm going to go with is the one I use for pilling cats:

Push the pill back, hold mouth closed and squirt tiny amounts of water in through the side of the mouth with a syringe until the animal swallows (being careful he/she doesn't choke --just a little water at a time).
Partnered with Leon --successor to Pebbles.

Online Kirsten

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 07:28:46 PM »
When opening the mouth, you can fold part of his side lip against the teeth so that if he tries to close it, he closes it on his own cheek.

You might also try a balling gun:  http://www.kvsupply.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf_id=93620&gift=False&0=dept.asp%2Cdept_id%3D9000%26Tree%3D%2CComplete%20Catalog&1=dept.asp%2Cdept_id%3D50000%26menu_id%3D%26Tree%3D0%2CLivestock&2=dept.asp%2Cdept_id%3D51700%26menu_id%3D%26Tree%3D1%2CMiscellaneous&HSLB=False&mscssid=191F808CD54046549D86766AB630602D  This tool can be used to position the pill at the back of the throat without risk to your own fingers and then eject it by means of a plunger, beyond the point of no return.  There is a hump back at the back and if you get the pill over that hump, it will go down even with resistance from the dog.

Your vet may be willing to change the formulation of the antibiotic to a liquid.  With some dogs, it is easier to give liquid medication.  You tilt the dog's muzzle up and gently but firmly grasp the muzzle.  Insert the syringe between the cheek and molars and slowly push the plunger.  The liquid then trickles to the back of the throat and the dog must swallow.  Liquid antibiotics also tend to be flavored and somewhat less objectionable to some dogs.

Some antibiotic tablets are rather large.  For some dogs, it may actually be easier to break them in half and give each half one after the other, instead of the whole.  Some dogs may find it easier to swallow that way.

You can hide pills in food, and I do that with things like vitamins and glucosmine, where there won't be a significant problem if one is missed every once in a while, but you must be very careful with antibiotics that the animal take all of the pills and take them all on schedule.  Failure in either regard MIGHT actually give the bug a chance to regroup and come back stronger.  So even if the dog seems better, you should finish giving the full course of treatment (lots of people will stop when the dog appears better, and this is a big no-no with antibiotics).

If you use food, monitor very closely to make sure the pill goes in, and not under the fridge.  If the dog does sort it and refuse it, the pill may become somewhat dissolve on the outside, which will almost certainly make it harder for him to swallow as it will be more likely to catch in his throat.  In such a case, I would throw away the damaged pill and use a fresh one, then replace it at the vet's the next day.

According to Cole, the surest way to a dog's stomach is still Fancy Feast.  But poor Leon has those allergies and dietary restrictions, so I don't know what to suggest for him in that regard.

Now here's what I personally do with my own pill resister, Cole.  I give the pill followed immediately by a highly desirable chaser.  This has two positive effects.  First, in order to swallow the treat that he's eager to get, he will also swallow the pill that went before it.  Second, it's good training.  I'm pairing something he's not thrilled with doing with a very positive reinforcer.  I may even jackpot him with treats after he takes the pill.

Finally, gravity is your friend when pilling any animal.  I find the ideal position with a large dog is straddling the dog as if I was going to ride a horse, with the dog on a sit.  I tilt the head straight upward toward my face so I can see the hump at the back clearly, then I chuck the pull to the back of the throat and let gravity take it as far as it will go.  In reality, with my dogs, I do just insert my hand in the mouth to the back of the throat because they are all used to it.  I handle their mouths a lot and they don't object.  My cats, on the other hand, have made vile threats of dismemberment during pilling, and for them I always employ the gravity method, except I rock them on their backs like a baby, their head cradled in my left elbow, my left hand grasping their front paws, and I open the mouth and drop the pill in with the right hand.

I have found with all animals that in the long run I get far less resistance if I develop a fast and efficient delivery technique.  Then it's less traumatic and objectionable for them.

Re: biting the toothbrush during brushing.  You can gently hold the mouth closed and insert the toothbrush between the teeth and cheek.  Then he can't get the brush between his teeth to bite it.  Dogs have carnasial teeth at the back, which means they overlap each other with the upper molars outside the lower molars.  You only really need to brush the outside of those upper molars and the incisors (front teeth) and fangs.  The incisors and fangs are easy to reach.  It's those molars that are tricky.  But you don't have to do the inside against the tongue, and you don't have to do the lower teeth.  The one exception is that there is a grinding molar at the very very back.  Just one on each side of each jaw (4 in all).  Those should be brushed across the grinding surface if possible.  But this is not always possible.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 07:31:57 PM by Kirsten »
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Offline Sheenar

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Re: Pilling problems
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 07:40:23 PM »
Thanks, Kirsten (and everyone else) for the suggestions!

It is time for Leon's next dose --will let y'all know how it goes.
Partnered with Leon --successor to Pebbles.

 


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